By Paul Freeman [December 2015 Interview]

Long before Katy Perry’s trifling pop tune of the same title, Jill Sobule was known as the “I Kissed A Girl” girl. Sobule’s song was more than a hit. It was a 1995 cultural phenomenon.

But there’s so much more to Sobule than that one meaningful and irresistible tune. In the past 25 years, she has seasoned her brilliant songs with subjects such as sexuality, anorexia, depression and loneliness, as well as political and social issues. They’re rich in story, character, insight and humor. And her vocals are distinctive, compelling and expressive.

The Denver, Colorado-born, Los Angeles-based artist’s first album, 1990’s “Things Here Are Different,” was produced by Todd Rundgren. The album failed to register with record buyers. The next one, produced by Joe Jackson, went unreleased. When her recording deal vanished, Sobule worked in retail and waitressed. Fortunately for discerning music fans, however, she persevered with performing.

Then came “I Kissed A Girl.” The topic, daring for its time, resulted in some radio stations banning the song.

Her song “Supermodel” was featured in the movie “Clueless.” Beyond its cleverness and catchiness, it touched on the issues of body image and eating disorders.

Times change and music artists have had to adapt. Sobule’s extraordinarily fervent and faithful fans supplied the money for her to record her brilliant 2009 album, “California Years.” This was pre-Kickstarter. She was, once again, ahead of her time.

The imaginative artist’s most recent album is “Dottie’s Charms.” For that project, she asked 11 of her favorite authors to write lyrics based on a charm bracelet she had purchased on eBay.

Sobule has been working on several musical theater projects, including one based on the Isaac Bashevis Singer story “Yentl.”

She hit the pause button on her inspiring creativity long enough to chat with Pop Culture Classics.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
Your current set, does it draw from your entire career?

JILL SOBULE:
For my current sets, I just kind of wing it. I don’t really have a set list… or I would get really bored. I just kind of wing it and people ask for something and usually always, if I remember it, I’ll play it. And you can get away with it, when you’re playing solo, just winging it.

PCC:
That makes it an adventure, I guess.

SOBULE:
It’s an adventure. It keeps it fun. And you feel it out. Venues are so different. Audiences are so different. So you never know. That’s so great, when you improvise. Probably 90 percent of the time, it turns out really good. And that other 10 percent, you’re like, “Maybe I really should have planned” [laughs].

PCC:
You seem to have exceptionally devoted fans, how have you nurtured that connection over the years?

SOBULE:
Even before the Facebooks and Myspace, I was always very good with news groups and always connecting with fans. I was probably early on that.

PCC:
You were also early on the Kickstarter type of campaign. How did you come up with that direct funding concept?

SOBULE:
I know! It was pre-Kickstarter. And actually, those guys had meetings with me before they started their thing. And it was a friend and I, over a bottle of wine, and I said, “I’ve got new songs. I’m not going to get a record deal.” It was that time, when it was just beginning, like “Who gets a record deal, anyway?” “And I don’t have any money. I’ll ask my fans, except I don’t want them to just give. I’m going to have to figure out some kind of system, where they get gifts and services in return.”

So we had jillsnextrecord.com and we came up with different levels of contributions, from polished rock to nuclear grade plutonium, which was where you sing with me, a duet with me. And so that’s how that started. And what happened was, when I put it out, CNN or AP wrote something about it. It was great. I’d get things like, “I really don’t like your music, but I love the idea, so I’m going to give $50 [laughs].

PCC:
Did you get a sense that maybe you were starting something revolutionary?

SOBULE:
Well, you know, I wish, in a way, I wouldn’t have been such a musician or artist. I wish I would have put on my venture capitalist hat - which I don’t have. I wish I would have thought, “Ah! This could be a business!” I didn’t do it. But yeah, it was great.

PCC:
“Dottie’s Charms” is such a delightful album, such a wonderful concept. Is that your most recent release?

SOBULE:
That is the most recent record. Right now I’m mastering the kind of “Best Of.” The working title is, “Jill Comes Alive”…. at Budokan or Leeds. [Laughs] That’s the working title. It’s kind of a best of live shows. So I’m doing that and working on the next one.

PCC:
I’ll look forward to that. I love “Dottie’s Charms.”

SOBULE:
I’m so glad. That was so much fun to do - put together the work of different authors, and collaborate. You can get stuck. And sometimes it’s like, I need to learn another instrument or something. I’ll start to write and I’ll pick up the guitar and I’ll go to the same chord and I’m like, “God, that’s a bore.” So sometimes it’s good to shake it up and collaborate with someone else. So that’s what I try to do.

PCC:
Are you also working on musicals now?

SOBULE:
Yeah! There’s three of them in the works. One of them, you remember “Yentl,” the movie with Barbra Streisand? Well, it was a beautiful book, Isaac Bashevis Singer, a little novella, in the 60s. And then a play in the 70s, based on the book. So I’m doing music to that adaptation. And it’s played at a couple places. It still needs some work, I think. And I did the music for one night at Lincoln Center with an all-woman eight-piece Klezmer band called Isle of Klezbos. It was just worth it for that. Isn’t that a great band name? So it’s kind of a folky, punky Klezmer thing.

The other one I’m doing is an adaptation of - do you remember, it was a cult movie like in the late 70s, called “Times Square” [Trini Alvarado, Tim Curry]? So we’re doing something with that. But that takes a lot of time and effort to do all that.

PCC:
And then the goal is to bring them eventually to New York?

SOBULE:
Well, “Yentl” is going to be playing in a theatre this spring in St. Louis. And then there’s interest in theatres in Europe. So it seems like it’s getting a little bit of a buzz. So who knows?

PCC:
You’ve done so many diverse songs, done TV, stage work, a number of great albums, does it bother you that some people still just associate you with a couple of songs from early in your career?

SOBULE:
Yeah, you know, it did. But now those people are getting so old, [laughs] so there’s another whole generation of people that don’t know. It’s so funny, it used to bug me that I was the “Kissed A Girl” girl. And now, that was taken over by Katy Perry. So part of me was like, “Shit!” [Laughs] “Damn! I’m not the ‘Kissed A Girl’ girl anymore!” But that doesn’t bother me anymore.

PCC:
But it must have been annoying, when you’d had such an impactful song, to have a rather trivial song with the same title become a big commercial hit.

SOBULE:
It was just annoying that, for that time period, that’s what anyone wanted to talk to me about. But it was definitely passing.

PCC:
So performing, was that not your focus until college years? Or was that always in the back of your mind?

SOBULE:
No, I was the guitar player. It was never until my third year abroad. I never really sang. I always had these songs that I’d write, but they were kind of personal journals. So I was a latecomer, actually.

PCC:
But to start by busking, was that not scary?

SOBULE:
Well, no. I was in Spain, so it was easier. I thought, “A lot of these people don’t even know what I’m singing. And I’ll never probably see these people again.” So that’s the joy of getting out of your hometown. Or out of the country. You can experiment, be bold, in all aspects.

PCC:
So even before you were singing, the writing was important to you in terms of self-expression?

SOBULE:
Self-expression, but I never played them. No, I just wanted to be a rock guitar player. And here’s the interesting thing I was telling someone the other day, in fact, it was Steve Lukather, the guitar player for Toto. He played on everyone’s sessions. And we did this charity Christmas event. And he’s an amazing guitar player. And I had the guts to say, “No, I’m going to play the solo on my own song.” And everyone’s laughing. And it was fun.

But I was telling him that I had just wanted to be a badass guitar player. At that period, when I was little, I was six years old and I had a Gibson SG and I had an older brother and used his Marshall amp. It must have looked so funny, this four-foot person with this Marshall stack. But I loved Hendrix. And then somehow, in junior high, it got to be like, “Well, it’s not very feminine and it’s not cool and women are supposed to sing Joni Mitchell songs,” which I loved anyway, too.

But I always think if I had been born in another time, or if I’d had more encouragement, maybe I would have just been a badass guitar player. Maybe I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing now.

PCC:
Was the songwriting a natural gift, do you think? Or was it more a craft that you had to hone?

SOBULE:
Oh, yeah. I mean, my first songs, the ones I sang in Spain, a friend had a cassette. And two years ago, had sent them to me. I had forgotten about those songs. They were terrible! [Laughs] Terrible! I don’t know what happened. I think I learned to not emulate anyone else and just kind of write from my journal. And I think that’s kind of what happened.

PCC:
Then, when it comes time for the first album, being teamed with Todd Rundgren, was that daunting, so early in your career?

SOBULE:
Oh, it was terrible. First of all, I was a big fan. And I hadn’t met, really, any celebrities, let alone one of my icons. And I hadn’t really been in the studio much. And my A&R person was a real Todd-head and thought he would be good, but also, I think she wanted to meet him, of course [laughs]. And he was really intimidating back then, in that time period. And so it was sort of semi-terrifying. That was really terrifying.

PCC:
And what were your hopes for the album? Did you think this was it, your big breakthrough?

SOBULE:
Well, I suppose so. I didn’t know, really. Right before then, I was just excited to play an open mic at The Bitter End in New York. That was a big deal. Or right before that, I played Josephina’s Pizza in Denver, Colorado. So my eyes were overly wide open [laughs]. So I didn’t have any expectations.

PCC:
And I read that after the Rundgren experience, there was an album produced by Joe Jackson.

SOBULE:
Well, yeah. I did one of Joe’s tours. Opened up for him. It was so amazing. And decided to have him produce the next one. And that’s the problem - it’s like people who you adore, you sometimes give them more power than you should. And that’s why - I don’t think that album came out. And I think I was having problems singing. And I was tense and probably going through some sort of mental state. And I think part of it, like I said, was not having confidence in myself.

PCC:
Having a struggle with confidence, then having to do retail work and waitressing, did you think you’d had your shot and it might be over? Or did you always think you were going to have another crack at it?

SOBULE:
I wasn’t sure. And the thing that probably kept me going was, I had no other skills to do anything else [laughs]. You know? I mean that. I dropped out of school in that third year, when I was busking. And I kind of didn’t know what else to do. So I kept playing. And I played New York. And finally, there was someone who was interested again, in what I was doing. So I think it was part ambition and wishfulness and part that I didn’t know what else I could do at that point.

PCC:
And then, when “I Kissed A Girl” does happen, and it’s not just a hit, but a cultural phenomenon. Was that overwhelming?

SOBULE:
Oh, yeah, completely. And it was kind of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, here I had this hit. On the second hand, because of the subject matter, the label really didn’t know quite what to do with me. So they thought, rather than dealing with it as a social or sexual issue, they were going to try to do it more as a novelty act. And I wanted to think of myself as a serious singer-songwriter. And they’d have me on the Morning Zoo shows. Oh, God, that was terrible [laughs]. And I didn’t quite know what to do.

They would have me like on “Entertainment Tonight,” because we had Fabio in the video. So my interview with “Entertainment Tonight” would be, “So what was it like to be with the hunkiest man in America?” [Laughs] And I’m like, “No, no, no! You don’t get it!” And with the video, that I thought was kind of genius, at the end, we were supposed to have a little kiss, me and the girl. Instead they had me, at the end, having Fabio’s baby [laughs]. My God! So it was kind of a mixed blessing.

On the other hand, to this day, I still get emails from people, saying that the song had meant a lot to them, when they were coming out as a teenager in Mississippi, or wherever they were. And so, I sometimes think, if I did nothing else, I did that. I always feel like, before I go, I want to do more good than bad. So I feel like that was a good thing.

PCC:
Yeah, it was so empowering to so many people.

SOBULE:
Yeah, so I have no regrets. None, on that end.

PCC:
Things have changed so much. Back then, did it seem to you like that song was really daring?

SOBULE:
Oh, my God, it was banned on some stations. There was a station that I loved that did a disclaimer. And I wrote it with my friend Robin Eaton in Nashville, because I lived in Nashville for a year-and-a-half. And we were nominated for Nashville’s Song of the Year. And that year, it was at the Grand Ole Opry.

I remember when they announced it, and we’re all there, dressed up, and it was… “For Nashville Song of the Year, blah-blah-blah… Vince Gill… “ People are cheering, cheering, cheering. And then the other one was like “Amy Grant” - cheer, cheer, cheer. And then, “‘I Kissed A Girl,’ Robin Eaton, Jill Sobule.” And you could have heard a pin drop. And we were laughing. Robin and I were in hysterics. And we didn’t win, of course. It was just so funny.

And like I said, I don’t think the label quite knew what to do with me. And I was the first artist on Lava Records. And afterwards, it was Matchbox 20, Kid Rock… all the other ones went on to have a lot of success.

PCC:
But then having “Superstar” included in the “Clueless” soundtrack, that movie struck such a responsive chord. Besides being entertaining, it really seemed to tap into something.

SOBULE:
Yeah. And even this year, it was the 20-something-year anniversary and I did a couple interviews and photo shoots and I had forgotten that it really did have a connection, especially with girls of a certain age, who loved it so much.

PCC:
And the song seems even more relevant today than it did then.

SOBULE:
I know, yeah, God. If you come to the show, there’s going to be some fun new songs that are of political and social import.

PCC:
You’ve always been great at etching characters in your songs. Was that something that led you into the theatrical realm?

SOBULE:
Well, yeah, I think that I was approached, because they saw me as a writer that was a storyteller. So it seemed kind of natural. And I wasn’t a musical theatre person at all, except when I was young, I loved “Hair” [laughs]. I loved “West Side Story.” But I wasn’t a musical theatre kid. By the time of the 80s, it was like echhh - Andrew Lloyd Webber… and I had a bad attitude towards it. But I’ve definitely changed that. Two days ago, I saw a production in L.A. of “Guys and Dolls” and I’m like, “Man, that Frank Loesser! I have no right to write a song!” [Laughs] It’s like, what amazing writing.

PCC:
But then, eventually, you get more inspired?

SOBULE:
Yeah! Yeah, it pushes you. It’s fantastic.

PCC:
You seem to be able to find a humorous side, even in a lot of serious subjects. Is that just your nature?

SOBULE:
Yeah, like I was saying, early on, my songs weren’t very good or didn’t feel unique. I think once you put your own personality into your songs and make them your own, that’s what makes them unique.

And that is the way I am. I always had a kind of dark sense of humor… and a light sense of humor. But even with something like “I Kissed A Girl,” the only way I was going to be able to have a song that had a same sex kiss and that kind of thing, you had to kind of cloak it in something else or have a story and have a sense of humor to it.

Same thing with “Supermodel,” the middle section - “I didn’t eat yesterday, didn’t eat today, not going to eat tomorrow” - so to have this goofy little song and in the middle there’s something relevant to eating disorder. So I always think, sometimes even in protest songs, it’s great. Growing up, my brother, who’s seven years older, he turned me on to so much stuff, when I was a kid, rather than the teenybopper stuff. I remember he had a John Prine record and it had the one about the junkie coming home from Vietnam, [sings] “There’s a hole in Daddy’s arm, where all the money goes.” And at first you’re like, “Oh, it’s a sweet, little, funny song.” And then you’re like, “Oh, my God.” I mean, it haunted me. And so I think I thought, if I ever wrote, I’d like to write like that.

PCC:
When you’re writing, other than when you’re starting a theatrical project, do you wait for the muse? Or do you force yourself to sit down and tell yourself it’s time to write something?

SOBULE:
Oh, I’m not one of those who writes every day. I hate those people. I wish I was one of them. You can’t wait for the muse. You have to just do it. You have to just force yourself to sit down.

PCC:
And eventually something happens?

SOBULE:
Yeah, for instance, I’ll be like, “Okay, I’m going to make myself write.” And it’ll be horrible. Horrible! There’s nothing. It’s like “The Shining.” [Laughs] It’s like [emits an anguished wail]. And then eventually, it’s like a muscle, I think. If you’re a runner and you haven’t run for a long time, those first few times you’re out there, it’s like “This is horrible.” And you’re talking to me when I’ve got to start sitting down. I’ve got to face those horrible couple days.

PCC:
At this point, what are the most rewarding and the most challenging aspects of your life in music?

SOBULE:
Rewarding? Well, there’s kind of a camaraderie aspect. Like tonight, I’m going to play at Largo. It’s Jeff Garlin hosting. Jon Brion’s going to be there and Susanna Hoffs, who I know and it was like, “Will you sing ‘Walk Like An Egyptian’ with me tonight?’ “Sure!” And the other night, played the Harry Shearer Christmas special. That was really great. And he sings my hit holiday song, “Jesus Was A Dreidel Spinner.” So I got to do that with him.

And I still love performing so much. And playing with people that you admire - that’s pretty great. There’s so many fun, great things. On the one hand, we’re all suffering as artists, because of the demise of the industry as we knew it. People don’t buy music anymore. So how do you make a living? That’s the hard thing.

But on the other hand, the old paradigm of my life was, as a recording artist, you hope to get a record deal. You do a record. You tour for it. You hope it does well enough so that you can do the whole cycle over again. Well, now, it’s like there are so many that you can’t do that anymore. So it opens up other possibilities that you probably wouldn’t have done before, whether that’s musical theatre or writing for some other kind of media or venues.

PCC:
So the possibilities seem endless at this point?

SOBULE:
Well, I have a problem focusing. So that’s my biggest challenge, is to say, “This is a priority, so I’m going to work on this.” And I always pick the ones that are for no money and really fun [laughs].

PCC:
When you look back at your work, can you appreciate it? Or are you hyper-critical?

SOBULE:
Sometimes I’m hyper-critical. It’s like, if there’s a picture that someone took of you or you took of yourself, three years ago and you think, “God, I look old and terrible. I don’t want to look at it!” And then you look at it three years later and go, “God, I look kind of good!” [Laughs] That’s kind of the way I am with my songs.

For the latest on this artist, visit www.jillsobule.com.