By Paul Freeman [2009 Interview]

Upon watching "Fernwood 2 Night," viewers' perceptions of talk shows were altered forever.

The classic chat show spoof aired in 1977. It starred Martin Mull as snide, egocentric host Barth Gimble. Created by Norman Lear and produced by Alan Thicke, the hilarious series was a spinoff of the satirical soap opera "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman." Barth was the twin brother of "Mary Hartman" character Garth Gimble, a wife-beater who died a memorable death.

The deliciously cheesy talk show was set in Fernwood, Ohio, the rural little town, where Hartman lived and suffered. Barth's dim-witted sidekick/announcer Jerry Hubbard was played by Fred Willard. The house band, The Mirthmakers, was led by Happy Kyne (composer/arranger Frank De Vol). Wrecking Crew guitarist Tommy Tedesco was in the group.

Actors playing colorful recurring characters included Dabney Coleman, Kenneth Mars, Bill Kirchenbauer and Jim Varney. Hip guests would occasionally pop up, including Tom Waits, whose tour bus broke down in Fernwood.

For the show's second season, the fictional talk show was moved to Southern California and the title was changed to "America 2-Night." The setting was now Alta Coma, the unfinished furniture capital of the world. The parody was just as pleasing in this new form. Again bizarre recurring characters added to the fun. Robin Williams portrayed professional escort Jason Shine. Celebrity guests included Carol Burnett, Burt Lancaster, Charlton Heston, Steve Allen, Milton Berle, Rob Reiner, Mark Hamill, Vincent Price, Charlton Heston, Sherman Hemsley, Elke Sommer, George Gobel, Barbara Eden, Rita Moreno, Jack Jones, Vicki Carr, Cindy Williams, Bella Abzug, Barbi Benton, Jim Nabors and Anne Murray.

Mull took an unconventional route to Fernwood. A native of North Ridgeville, Ohio, he graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design with a Bachelor of Fine Arts and a Master of Fine Arts in painting. But Mull's cleverness and off-beat charm made him a natural as a performer. He gained a cult following, touring as a stand-up comic/singer-songwriter. He accompanied himself on a hollow-body guitar and traveled with his "fabulous furniture," which made each venue's stage comfy.

Mull penned Jame Morgan's 1970 country chart single, "A Girl Named Johnny Cash." His own self-titled 1972 debut album, featured such guests as Ramblin' Jack Elliott, The Band's Levon Helm, NRBQ's Keith Spring and Libby Titus.

Mull demonstrated that he had an extraordinarily sharp wit and quirky sensibility. But he also proved that he was an engaging comedic actor. His lengthy list of credits includes such movies as "Serial" (with Tom Smothers and Tuesday Weld)," "Mr. Mom" "My Bodyguard" and "Mrs. Doubtfire," as well as such TV shows as "Domestic Life," "The Golden Girls," "Hollywood Squares," the original run of "Roseanne," "Arrested Development" and, of course, "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman." He can be seen in the new Will Forte-starring Netflix film "A Futile and Stupid Gesture."

Mull's work as a painter, which encompasses photorealist, pop art and collage styles, has been increasingly widely recognized. One of his works was used as the cover of a Joyce Carol Oates novel; another for the cover of a Steve Martin-Edie Brickell album.

Pop Culture Classics welcomed an opportunity to chat with the brilliant, ever amusing Mull prior to the "Fernwood" reunion event at the SF Sketchfest in 2009. It re-teamed him his old pal, Fred Willard.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
Sounds like this "Fernwood" reunion will be an amazing event. Have you and Fred done anything like this before?

MARTIN MULL:
Well, Fred and I did a reunion of the old show at the Directors Guild in Los Angeles, several years back. But it's the first time in a long time that we've done this.

PCC:
What do you think was the unique magic of that show?

MULL:
[Laughs] Being able to get something on the air for that budget... which was like a little less than zero. That was sort of what we wanted, though. We wanted something that looked like it cost about a buck-ninety-eight.

PCC:
And you succeeded.

MULL:
Yeah, I mean there were even times, at one point, we were doing this one thing where they were using three cameras. And we sat down and said, "Wait a minute -- these people wouldn't have three cameras. They'd have one... if it was working." So we completely restructured a shot, because we wanted it to look shitty and poor.

PCC:
And how did it come about in the first place? Was it just an outgrowth of "Mary Hartman," where you had an idea that this direction might work? Was it something you worked up with Norman Lear?

MULL:
Actually, I think Norman Lear had this idea. And he knew that wanted to do like a spoof of a talk show. He was enamored of his Fernwood locale, from "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman." And I think the whole idea was his. His concern, casting me was, even though I had spent the previous 20 years in front of audiences, traveling around, doing my music and comedy act, he had only known me as an actor, without an audience. And he was afraid I couldn't work with an audience.

So we went ahead and set up a special event -- my band and I did a concert at the Roxy. And in the middle of the concert, I just stopped. He was in the audience. And I said, "Norman, do I have the job?" [Laughs] And he said, "Yes, you do. Just keep going." And that was it.

And the most amazing thing was, I had not met Fred till the very first day of rehearsal. It was a cold meeting. And it was just absolute kismet.

PCC:
Yeah, why do you think there is that chemistry? Is it just that your personalities mesh? Comic sensibilities?

MULL:
It could be a common sensibility. It could be born of the land, too, because Fred Willard grew up in Cleveland, as did I. We were about six miles apart, when we grew up... and never even knew it. There was a little difference in age, so we wouldn't have seen each other at football games or things like that. But I think that the terrain probably caused a little bit of the sensibility.

PCC:
Was this done in the era when there were talk shows all over the place, morning, afternoon and evening?

MULL:
Yeah, yeah. Not to the extent that there are now. I mean, back then, it was pretty much Johnny, Merv, Mike Douglas, Dinah Shore. And then shortly after that, you had Chevy Chase and Jerry Lewis, who were all trying to be talk show hosts.

PCC:
You'd think it would have been a lot more difficult to even attempt it, after "Fernwood" and "America 2-Night" skewered the format.

MULL:
[Laughs] Well, it's like, I would never put "Fernwood 2 Night" back on after "Jerry Springer," because you can't get more outrageous.

PCC:
Did you get some feedback from the established talk show hosts of the day?

MULL:
Oh, yeah. There was one time -- and I don't think I'm speaking out of school, when I say this -- but there was a time on "Fernwood 2 Night" when I turned to my guest and I said something to the effect of, "Of course, this is only interesting to you. We'll be right back." And during the commercial break once, doing the Carson show, Johny said that he had seen that and he said, "You don't know how many times I've wanted to say that! And I was so envious." [Laughs]

PCC:
Even though it seemed so improvised, I guess it was actually fully scripted?

MULL:
Yes and no. What happened was, when we started out, Norman had the idea that since it was a talk show, we wouldn't have to treat it as a regular half-hour scripted comedy, which you usually allow a week per. He said, "We're going to do 10 a week -- two a day. But it's scripted." And of course, this put the writers to a great task. And they were Herculean in what they could do. But still, it got to the point where things were not happening. And so they cut it back to six a week and a couple of days off for the writers.

And then one day, we were like two minutes short. And Norman said to Fred and I, "Is there anything you guys could talk about and just kind of pad the thing a little bit, just kind of blather?" And we checked with each other and said, "Yeah. there is." And it turned out we were about 18 minutes over by the time we were done. They loved what we did.

And from then on, a lot of the stuff was what you call "bullet point," which is, what I will know is that Paul is coming on the show. Paul is a writer. Paul has said that he's been abducted by aliens. He will tell you this, he will tell you that -- that kind of thing, as opposed to word for word. It allowed us to improvise an awful lot.

PCC:
So that was a great preparation for all of Fred's stints in Christopher Guest mockumentaries.

MULL:
Oh, yeah. He's always been a gifted improvisational actor.

PCC:
And you certainly have a sense of spontaneity on stage.

Left to right: Frank De Vol, Martin Mull, Fred Willard

MULL:
Well, thank you.

PCC:
So what's the format for this Sketchfest event?

MULL:
I think they're going to show some clips and then there's going to be a brief segment where Fred and I talk to the audience in character. And then we are going to disappear for a brief second and come back as ourselves. And the only thing that gives me pause is the difference between the characters and being ourselves is so miniscule.

PCC:
[Laughs] Very subtle.

MULL:
Yeah, it's one that I'm not even sure I would be able to perceive, if I was in the audience. So we'll see what happens. I don't know.

But Fred, I remember once when I was hosting "The Tonight Show" and I wanted to get Fred as a guest. As host, you were allowed to choose guests, if you liked. And I suggested Fred Willard. And Freddie De Cordova, who was the producer at the time, said, "No, no, no, no." He said, "You get him out here, it's just going to turn into 'Fernwood 2 Night.'" I said, "No, it isn't. You have to understand -- Fred is a brilliant actor. He's had a lot of different irons in the fire. He's got things he can talk about." I finally convinced him that Fred was a risk that was worth taking and he wouldn't be Jerry Hubbard.

And so, we brought him out. "Fred, how you doing? What have you been up to lately?" The first obvious, ubiquitous question. And Fred said, "I've been working on a novel." And I thought, "Perfect. This is perfect talk show talk. He's really doing it. Fred is bailing me out here." And I said, "You're working on a novel, huh?" And Fred said, "Yeah... those things take forever to read." And from there on, it was "Fernwood 2 Night."

PCC:
[Laughs] You guys have worked together a number of times since the "Fernwood" days.

MULL:
Yeah. We did a series called "The History of White People in America" together. We did something for HBO where I went back to my high school in Ohio.

I'm not doing much these days. These days I'm pretty much a full-time painter.

PCC:
Yes, I've seen your paintings online. They're amazing. So imaginative, really striking. Does the acting career seem like a giant detour, since you started out aiming towards the fine arts?

MULL:
No, it was more, once I got my Masters degree and found out there was no doctorate in painting, I had to bite the bullet and make a living. At that point, I'd been putting myself through school as a musician, singer and comedian type of thing. And so just kept doing that, thinking, "Any day now, the shoe will fall. People will realize this is just not what I'm trying to do. And they'll stop coming." But one thing led to another to another to another -- a few acting jobs and so forth. And it's been wonderful... but never intended.

PCC:
So as far as future acting jobs, is it just a matter of, if something seems like it's going to be a fun project...

MULL:
At this point, if something seems like it would be more fun than I'm allowed, I'll do it. And if it seems like an unconscionable amount of money for doing precious little...

PCC:
And "Fernwood" and "America 2 Night," was there talk about bringing them back in any new version?

MULL:
At one point, we actually were going to do a gala reunion thing. But somehow it fell through the cracks. There were some problems, in terms of who owned the rights or something. Maybe somebody had it on the shelf and was not dealing with it. But Nickelodeon ran all the old episodes a while back. There were 130 of them.

PCC:
It's remarkable you could keep the quality up over the course of so many episodes.

MULL:
Well, I don't think we did.

PCC:
They were all very funny. The show is definitely a cult classic.

MULL:
Well, thank you.