By Paul Freeman [April 2012 Interview]

Little Charlie & The Nightcats, for decades, stood among the most crowd-pleasing blues bands. When guitarist Charlie Baty decided to retire from the road, the group’s future seemed in doubt. But lead singer/harmonica player Rick Estrin stepped up and helped the Nightcats deliver one of their best albums, 2009’s “Twisted.”

The Alligator Records release earned several Blues Music Awards nominations and was number two for the year on the Living Blues airplay chart. Though, as in past albums, it featured Estrin’s clever songwriting, gruff vocals and wailing harp, it added rock and soul intensity.

At their upcoming shows, Rick Estrin & The Nightcats will play songs from throughout their career, including selections from “Twisted,” and a preview of the follow-up, “One Wrong Turn,” due in July.

At 15, already singing the blues, Estrin picked up the harmonica. Haunting San Francisco record stores, he emulated artists like Sonny Boy Williamson and Little Walter.

Moving to Chicago for a while, 19-year-old Estrin jammed with the greats. In 1976, he formed Little Charlie & The Nightcats with Baty.

The band built a loyal following throughout the world. But Baty had tired of touring by 2008. In flux, Estrin made an instructional DVD, put out a harmonica blues album and toured South America with a band from that region.

Drummer J. Hansen and bassist Lorenzo Farrell told them they wanted to keep The Nightcats going. Then Norwegian guitar sensation Chris “Kid” Andersen called and happened to mention that he was no longer with Charlie Musselwhite’s band. It was a perfect fit. So The Nightcats roll on. The Sacramento-based Estrin is now 62. Blues is one genre that appreciates age and the experience it brings.

In addition to his harp playing, vocals and showmanship, Estrin is known for his terrific songwriting. He won the 1993 Blues Music Award for his song “My Next Ex-Wife.” He believes the songs on “One Wrong Turn” could represent his best yet.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
What directions will the new album, ‘One Wrong Turn’ take?

RICK ESTRIN:
I think we’ve gelled more and evolved more, in this incarnation of the band and so I think the new one will be a more fleshed-out realization of what ‘Twisted’ hinted at.

PCC:
‘Twisted’ was quite a departure.

ESTRIN:
It was. Little Charlie did a lot more swing type of stuff., a little more of an overtly retro kind of thinking. With this, some of the grooves are a little more updated. and some are just basic, good-sounding blues grooves that are timeless. But we’re talking about a little bit different subject matter, too. There’s some thinly veiled, to very thinly veiled social commentary on there, which I previously hadn’t done a lot of.

PCC:
When you take the music and lyrics into different realms, do you worry whether the fan base is going to follow you?

ESTRIN:
Well, with ‘Twisted,’ I was really happy to be back with Alligator. And I knew that, with their support, I’d have the best chance of picking up almost where we left off. I was really happy with the way it was received, for sure. We had four or five nominations for BMAs that next year. It got a lot of airplay. It was number one in Living Blues airplay. And then, for the year, it was number two in the Living Blues airplay charts. So I was pleased with how well it did. But I was hopeful that it would do okay, well enough to do another one,” [Laughs]. And, as it turns out, it was well received.

And I’m anxious to see how this new one is received, because by the time you’re mixing it and scrutinizing every little detail, remixing it and going back and listening and listening to all these little tiny things, by the time you’re done, personally, I never want to hear it again, for years. But with this record, for some reason, when we go back to remixing, I just find myself grooving, just listening, digging it. So hopefully other people will like it. I just think there’s some kind of intangible, good feeling on this one.

PCC:
How has your songwriting process changed over the years?

ESTRIN:
I think I might have a better handle on craft. When I was younger, I felt like I had more to say, because I was younger. And then I said all of that. But now I’m finding a way of saying other things that I think in my own way. I used to think that tackling bigger subjects was very difficult. And any time I tried it, it was kind of borderline corny. It’s just difficult to do with anything big. But now I think I’ve managed it. We’ll see. I think I’ve found a way to do it. I think I’ve found a way to make it personal enough that it’s not preachy or grandiose.

PCC:
When you began writing, did you go back and study the records you had liked, to see how those songs were structured?

ESTRIN:
No, because I was a fan first. And I didn't have to go back and study. I knew those songs so well already. All that stuff I knew and loved was just a part of me. It had just internalized a lot of different influences and when it was time for me to write, I could draw on that.

I always thought I could probably write songs. When I was about 18, I met a guy named Rodger Collins, who lived in San Francisco. He had a hit record, when I was a kid, called ‘She’s Looking Good.’ And he was a writer, still is a writer. And he encouraged me to write and taught me some principles to apply to writing songs that made sense to me and that I still incorporate. And had I that ability and I developed it over time. But I’m a fan. And I have an ear for a certain type of language. And I’m able to do that.

PCC:
Do you find that the songs you’ve liked over the years have anything in common? The themes, the feel? What makes them work for you?

ESTRIN:
There are some themes that I’m a sucker for. But it has to be done well. And feeling is the big thing. If I’m just going to dig a piece of music and listen to something and be moved by it, then the feeling is the number one thing. But there are so many things, the lyrics, the delivery. Sometimes, if the feeling is right, the lyrics don’t have to be that much. Or if the lyric is just perfect for what it is and it’s the perfect marriage of the delivery and the arrangement and the lyric, the lyric can be pretty simple. There’s a blues song by a guy name of Luther Huff that’s called ‘1951 Blues’ and the opening line of it is, ‘1950, Lord, was not my year.’ [Laughs]. It’s just so me. And just so f-ckin’ great, man. But it’s partly the way he delivers it. And to me, that just sums up blues, you know,

PCC:
It was listening to your sister’s blues records that hooked you to begin with?

ESTRIN:
That’s what started me, yeah. She had a couple of Jimmy Reed records. She had ‘Tain’t No Big Thing’ by Jimmy Reed and ‘And she had ‘I’m Jimmy Reed.’ And she had a Champion Jack Dupree record, a great record, called ‘Blues From The Gutter, ‘ on Atlantic. And she had a bunch of stuff. She was kind of like a beatnik. She had some Nina Simone records and stuff like that, which isn’t exactly blues, but is blues-influenced. But it was really those Jimmy Reed records that got me.

And then she saw I was interested in that stuff and she gave me, for my 12th birthday, this record, ‘The Genius Sings The Blues’ by Ray Charles.’ And I just started getting into it, man. There was just something about that music that spoke to me a lot differently than the stuff that was out on the radio then, especially the white music that was out on the radio then. I was listening to Ray Charles singing some of these songs, ‘I Believe in My Soul’ was on there, stuff like that and it just felt like he understood how I felt, which was probably pretty delusional for a kid, but it meant a lot to me. I found a lot of comfort in those records.

PCC:
What drew you to harmonica?

ESTRIN:
When I was a little bit older, maybe 15, first my mother gave me one when I was in the hospital. I couldn’t make any noise in the hospital, so I don’t know why she gave it to me [Chuckles]. But then, pretty soon after that, I grew up in San Francisco and this was like the beginning of the San Francisco sound. This might have been even a little before the hippie ballroom stuff. There were a lot of bands starting to form around San Francisco. And they had these shows at California Hall and stuff. This was before Bill Graham took over the Fillmore Auditorium and before Chet Holmes had the Avalon Ballroom, they had these dances and things.

There was a band that was sort of trying to be like the American version of the British Invasion that lived down the street from me. The whole band lived in the house together. I thought, ‘Man, that’s cool. No adults.’ They were sort of grown, compared to me. There were no parents around. And probably the beginnings of drugs might have played a part in it. I would go down there and hang out.

And when I was younger, I was into singing. When I was younger, I had more of a voice, too. But I was in a room, singing with this other guy, we were harmonizing on something, and the leader of that band heard us and said, ‘Wow, you sound pretty good. Here.’ And he gave me a harmonica and said, ‘You gotta learn how to play this.’ I think I was probably high on something. I went into a room in this house, by myself, and closed the door and started playing. I don’t mean to say ‘playing.’ Started breathing into the harmonica and trying to see what I could do with it. No doubt it sounded awful. But I came out of that room and somehow I had convinced myself I could learn how to do this. And that’s what I was going to do. And, from that day forward, for a long time, man, I just .played all day, every day, drove everybody nuts, they didn’t want to be around me. But I had just decided that that was what I was going to do.

PCC:
And you began by emulating artists you had heard?

ESTRIN:
Well, I already had this Jimmy Reed sound in my head, right? And that’s what I thought a harmonica was supposed to sound like. Thank God, I had the right stuff already in place in my head. But I started exploring. I was curious about it. I remember buying a record down on Market Street, in a bargain bin, for a buck, it was called ‘Original Rhythm & Blues Hits By Original Rhythm & Blues Artists.’ And it was a compilation of all these different RCA Victor Bluebird blues artists, so there was Sonny Boy Williamson, the first Sonny Boy Williamson was on there, also Jazz Gillam and a lot of other people that didn’t play harmonica, but it was a great blues record. So I got into that and I started getting into Sonny Boy Williamson the second, who is more well known now, because he went to England and made a record with the Yardbirds and all that stuff. So I got into his style. And then I started getting into Little Walter and all his stuff and the stuff he made accompanying other people. There’s no end. It’s just fascinating to me. It’s still just trying to express my own feelings and ideas in my own version of those traditional blues styles. That still brings me the most joy and it’s just something that I love doing.

PCC:
The time you spent in Chicago, how important was that in your development?

ESTRIN:
That was important, because, when I first got to Chicago, I think it was probably 1969, there was still plenty of stuff going on, man. Little Walter was dead and Sonny Boy was dead. But everybody else was still around. And I can remember, when I first got to Chicago, going to the original Pepper’s Lounge, on the south side, and it was Junior Wells’ girlfriend’s birthday party. And James Cotton, his band was working that night. And it was the band with Luther Tucker and Francis Clay and Bobby Anderson, and it was just a great band, man. And Junior was there and they were playing and eventually, during the night - they had a really long bandstand - everybody was up on the bandstand, blowing the harp. And in those days, people didn’t think about some of the stuff they think about now. So they were just passing one harp down the line, man, And everybody was lined up. There was Junior, Cotton, Big Walter, Carey Bell, me and Charlie Musselwhite and some other guy that I didn’t know. And I’m standing up there with those guys and I was like 19 years old, maybe 20, and just thinking, ‘I must be cool,’ [laughs], ‘if I’m up here with these guys.’ And it’s experiences like that...

The first time I sat in with Muddy at the Sutherland Hotel, on 47th and Drexel on the south side, and the kinds of things he said to me that night, that I played, just all so encouraging, just made me feel like I was doing the right thing. Junior Wells said some real nice stuff to me during that time. And it encouraged me. And I put in a lot of hours, trying to learn that stuff. And I guess they could tell it.

PCC:
What about the showmanship aspect? And the look? Did that come naturally?

ESTRIN:
The look came naturally. I could show you a picture of me when I was 12 years old and the only thing different was that I didn’t have a mustache. And then there were times after that where I had long hair or whatever. But I have a poster of a show I did with Rodger Collins, when I was 18 and I had a little like Nat King Cole finger wave and wearing a suit and stuff. So the look was just something I just always had.

The showmanship part, that also, no doubt about it, came from Rodger Collins. He was a great showman. And just by being around him, and also he taught me some little principles of showmanship...

PCC:
Such as?

ESTRIN:
Such as facial expression and timing, things like that. There were no specifics like do this and do that, but I would watch him every night and I would see how this stuff worked. And a lot of it was timing, inflection, many different things. I couldn’t emulate what he was doing, but I could apply the principles of what he was doing, once I had enough experience under my belt, to develop my own shit. I found out that, any time I try something that ain’t me, guess what? It’s not going to work. So it took me a long time to be able to implement the things that I picked up from him. But I know I picked up a lot of things from him, just seeing how he was able to activate a whole nightclub full of people and just have them riveted from start to finish and they would leave the club satisfied and worn out and leave with a smile on their face.

PCC:
When you got together with The Nightcats, did you have any inkling that this would be a lifelong pursuit? That it would last decades?

ESTRIN:
Well, I didn’t know what would happen with the band, I just knew I was just so happy to find somebody like Little Charlie. We both had this love for blues, the real Chicago blues and the real ‘50s and early ‘60s kind of stuff. And we both loved playing it. And it was like the least popular music in the world, at that point. So it was just so great to find somebody who wanted to play that stuff.

I always knew that I was going to play. It was never a hobby. It was always the primary focus. I mean, I had other jobs, when I couldn’t support myself playing music... or at least I would have a girlfriend with a job or something. [Chuckles] But I had no idea the band would last that long or make records or anything like that.

PCC:
The band developed such a loyal following, when Charlie decided to stop touring, did you wonder if you could replace him and keep it going?

ESTRIN:
Well, I didn’t wonder if I could replace them, because he’s so unique that there’s no replacing him. I knew it would be difficult to find somebody that had the knowledge of the styles that would fit with me. And also to generate that kind of excitement.

To be honest, what I was thinking I would do, when I realized he was actually serious about retiring, I did a couple of things to try to position myself. One of the problems was that 60, 70 percent of all the people thought that I was Charlie. They just assumed that, when they saw the band. People would say, ‘Hi Charlie,’ and I would just say, ‘How ya doin’?’ It was easier than explaining it. If I did explain and say, ‘Actually, Charlie is the guitar player. My name is Rick,’ then they’d go, ‘Ah, okay, Charlie.’

So I knew that was a problem. I had to do a couple things to position myself to still be able to work. So what I did, I made a kind of instructional DVD that was pretty well received, very different from any other instructional thing... mainly because I don’t know how to teach. But it was entertaining and there’s a lot of good conceptual kind of information in there.

PCC:
About how to play blues harmonica?

ESTRIN:
Yeah, it’s about that. But it’s more how not to play like an asshole. [Laughs] So I did that and I also made a sort of a more lowdown blues harmonica-focused CD, too. I did a versions of some of my old songs and a couple of things that I called originals that were improvised instrumentals. I did a version of ‘Harlem Nocturne’ on there. Some different things. I put that out, because people had been asking, ‘Why don’t you make a real harp album?’ So I did that, but I didn’t really shop it to anybody. I just pressed them and a booked myself a tour in South America with a South American band.

That was in ‘07, I guess. And what I realized from that was that this South American band was great. Igor Prado, a great guitar player... and his whole band was just fantastic. And when I got there, he was asking me what material I wanted to do. And I was sending him MP3s of songs and he’d be going , ’Oh, man that’s a classic.’ I was sending him my songs and he knows them. Really knows them. Calls them ‘classics.’ He’s a young guy. and he was a Little Charlie fan. So he knew all this stuff. So that made it simple. So I thought, well, they won’t all be as good as him, but there are young guys everywhere who learn how to play by listening to Little Charlie records. That is gratifying, but it’s also certainly convenient.

So I thought, ‘Well, maybe I’ll be a low-budget version of Chuck Berry, just go around, fly in don’t have the responsibility of anything and just play with different bands in different regions, all over the world.

But what happened was, Lorenzo and J., the bass player and drummer, they really wanted to keep it going. And they’re great guys. That was the best band we ever had, really. But I just didn’t know who to get to play guitar. Then one day, Kid Andersen, who I knew, because he was the recording engineer on the blues harmonica sort of record that I made, and I had known him since he moved here, really. He was playing with Charlie Musselwhite. He was a guy on the scene and a great guitar player. And whenever he would sit in with us, he was great. A lot of guys who sat in would be intimidated by Little Charlie, but he’d just be having fun with it. And he could keep up. He’s a natural.

He called me about something else and I didn’t know it, but it came out in our conversation that he wasn’t playing with Charlie Musselwhite anymore and I asked him if he’d want to try playing with us. So it was just sort of a serendipitous deal. It’s turned out great

PCC:
You’re based in Sacramento. Married at this point?

ESTRIN:
I’m divorced, but I’ve been with the same woman for like 15 years or something. I would be married, if she believed in arithmetic.

PCC:
You’re 62 now. More so than other genres, blues people seem to appreciate the experience that age brings.

ESTRIN:
I know that I always felt that way about it, when I was young. I was always looking to the generation before me, to them as influences and masters and the real deal, which they actually were. There’s a youth worship trend, especially in America. And so, wherever you go, it’s ‘Oh, man, you’ve got to hear this 10-year-old kid, man. He sounds just like Stevie Ray Vaughan, man, like a cross between Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page. It’s really the blues.’ So there’s that trend.

But I see the same thing in country music, too. Country music used to be a genre where, whoever was an established star, they always had an audience. And I don’t think that’s the case anymore. The pop music model is now in place with that. George Jones and Merle Haggard are I guess still reviewed as legends, as they ought to be, but as far as working and that translating into numbers and stuff like that, I think even Garth Brooks is over the hill.

I can’t worry about any of that shit, you know? If I just mind my own business, do my thing, then I am fully occupied. So I’m glad people will still come to see me. And we still put on a kick-ass show. I think we give people their money’s worth. If they like music, they’re going to dig it. If they like entertainment, they’re going to dig it.

PCC:
You don’t have any plans to leave the road, like Little Charlie did?

ESTRIN:
No, I don’t. No. Not at all. I want to go out like Robert Lockwood or Pinetop or one of those guys, just do it till I can’t do it anymore.

PCC:
For you, over the course of the career, what have been the greatest challenges and the greatest rewards?

ESTRIN:
I think the biggest challenges are just the changing nature of the business. In the ‘80s and the ‘90s, you could do just driving tours across the U.S. and you never had to come home. There were clubs everywhere that were booking national touring blues acts, seven nights a week. And that’s no longer the case. Part of that is the function of the economy, part of it is the aging demographic of the audience for this music, part of it is more stringent drunk driving laws. Part of it is there are 500 TV channels and Netflix and the internet and all that stuff. So there are a lot of factors that make it so that the model that you used to be able to adhere to is not feasible anymore. But one thing, at least last year, we were able to make up for it by playing a lot more festivals and a traveling a lot more. Last year we were in South America several times, we were in Europe two or three times. We did a five-week tour of Turkey. So we were able to make up for it up that way. But it’s a changing scene.

PCC:
So there’s an appreciation for blues everywhere in the world.

ESTRIN:
Everywhere in the world, man. That part, I never would have foreseen.

PCC:
And the rewards that make it all worthwhile?

ESTRIN:
I just get to do what I love doing and, if some people identify with it and relate to it, that’s great. On Facebook, there was some guy this week that sent me a picture of his arm, which has a portrait of me on it. And he says, ‘Hey man, what do you think of it? It’s my new tattoo!’ And this f-cker’s in Greece! That’s one of the only countries I’ve never been to in my life. I’ve been almost everywhere else in the world, playing music. But never even been to Greece and here’s this guy with this great-looking portrait of me. There’s no mistaking who it is.

In and of itself, it doesn’t mean anything, but if you’re able to affect people’s moods and just give them some pleasure, it’s a great thing to do, man. I’m not hurting anybody, not trying to sell somebody a bunch of crap they don’t need... aside from a CD [laughs]. I’m not trying to take advantage of anybody. I’m performing a service, really, because it gives people a little respite from their drudgery. People need a break. And if I can be that, it’s a great, great life. I don’t want to use the word ‘noble,’ but we’re doing a good thing. I can feel okay about it. Plus, I’m staying out of the labor pool. I’ve got no skills and no education, so it’s great, man! [Laughs]

For the latest Nightcats info and show dates, visit rickestrin.com.