By Paul Freeman [1996 Interview]

There’s a lot more to Robert Smith than hair and makeup. He’s proven himself to be an extraordinary creative force. The U.K.’s Smith, who also played in the band Siouxsie and the Banshees, co-founded The Cure in 1976, in West Sussex. The band began writing and demoing their own songs in 1977. He became the group’s lead vocalist, guitarist and primary songwriter. Wending their way through Goth, post-punk, new wave and alternative elements, The Cure established themselves as a modern rock sensation, recording such enduring songs as “Boys Don’t Cry,” “Pornography,” “The Perfect Girl,” “Close To Me,” “Pictures of You,” “Lovesong,” “Never Enough,” “Friday I’m In Love” and “The End of the World.”

We spoke with Smith upon the release of “Wild Mood Swings.” The Cure’s 10th studio album, it turned out to be not nearly as commercially successful as the band’s previous record, 1992’s massive hit “Wish.” But Robert Smith has said it remains one of his favourite’s of the group’s creations. Twenty years after our interview, the band, still vibrant and tantalizing fans, is currently on tour, summer of 2016. For the latest news, visit www.thecure.com.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
With “Wild Mood Swings,” were you trying to shake listeners up a little bit? Or were these just the songs you felt compelled to record?

ROBERT SMITH:
I suppose whenever we make an album, we don’t think about the consequences. It’s only after it’s made, once it goes out there. Strangely enough, I have been surprised at the differences of opinion with regards to ‘Wild Mood Swings,’ because I think it’s really good. [Chuckles] I would say that, but with each record that we’ve made, the reason why we make it is a sort of internal drive, a need to make it, and also a desire to create something that people will enjoy.

But this one, I knew as we were making it that it was really good. And in the past, I’ve never been quite sure until it’s finished. The first reactions we got to the album were from the British press… but they’re a bit down on us anyway. So it kind of startled me, people saying that this wasn’t a good record. I thought, “Hang on, it is a good record.”

PCC:
What seemed to be the complaint?

SMITH:
Well, that it sounds like The Cure [laughs], which seems like an absurd kind of critique of a group called The Cure. I suppose it took me by surprise, really, because the people that heard it, we were living in this house and kind of made friends with a lot of people, locally, and they’d come down, and without exception everyone who heard what we were doing thought it was good. I suppose it’s just in the nature of criticism to run things down.

PCC:
Within that context of The Cure, there’s really a lot of diversity in this album.

SMITH:
Yeah, but I suppose if I sang over a bunch of nuns, they would say it sounded like The Cure. I mean, basically, just because it’s me. That’s why I think it’s the best thing we’ve done - because there is a lot of diversity. That’s why it’s called “Wild Mood Swings.” Lyrically and musically, we cover more stuff than we have done in the past.

PCC:
Were you not ready to do something like this musically until now?

SMITH:
The gap after ‘Wish,’ which had been kind of an enforced gap, in a lot of respects, because it’s about people leaving and I had a court case that dragged on, that was kind of a good thing, because it gave me time to think about what I wanted to do next. And I think the pressure was really on the group that made the “Wish” album to quickly capitalize on that and get something else out there. And I think, if we had done that, it would have been a substandard record, because I don’t think we were really ready to make it.

And I also think the group that did the “Wish” album, the core of that group, we’d really done as much as we could. In some ways, in the back of my mind, I was slightly unsure as to what we could achieve, because we all knew each other so well. So the fact that it all kind of fell apart was a good thing. It was one of those haphazard, serendipitous things that worked in our favour.

PCC:
There have been a number of changes in personnel over the years. Is that something that may be difficult at the time, but tends to keep things fresh, as you go along?

SMITH:
Well, on paper, it looks like there have been a lot of people that have gone. But a lot of people have come back. And the core of the group, like Boris [Williams, drummer], Porl [Thompson, lead guitar, keys, sax], me and Simon [Gallup, bass], were together from 1984 through to 1992. Eight years, that’s longer than most bands exist, full-stop. There have been probably three or four different lineups over the years. There have been peripheral members who have come and gone. Others have gone and come back. Roger [O’Donnell, keyboards] joined the band in ’87, left in 1990, he’s come back in 1995. Simon left and came back. Porl was originally in, left and came back.

So it’s not so much that people just disappear. The lineup changes. There are have been times in the past where what I wanted do has necessitated people leaving. But they’re few and far between. Most people leave, because they want to do something else. Like Porl left, because he wanted to go and play with Page and Plant. Boris left, because he wanted to play with his girlfriend. But it doesn’t really bother me, because anyone who’s in The Cure has to really, really want to be in it. And you have to want to do what everyone else wants to do. And there’s never been a lineup of the group where anyone hasn’t wanted to do it. So it doesn’t worry me that there are occasionally lineup changes. And it actually does keep me fresh.

The whole way we worked on the new album was completely different from the way we did “Wish.” It’s like dinner conversations are different, because different people are there. They’ve got different experiences. We are able to tell the same old stories and they listen. And something new results from that.

PCC:
But were you worried that the gap between records might mean that the world had gone by you in the meantime?

SMITH:
Well, again, I think I probably, if I was being honest, I’ve been surprised by how much this has made. But on the other hand, I felt, and still do feel, that if it was our first album, I wouldn’t have anything to worry about. So I kind of look at it in that perspective.

The Cure has got quite a lot of history. And I’m proud of a lot of it, but I’m aware that there is a media perspective that’s kind of foisted on the public, that, oh, you won’t like this group, because they’re this, they sound like this. And I thought, well, if this is the first album, people might think, “The Cure, maybe I’ve heard of them, I’m not quite sure, but maybe it’s the first thing they’ve done.” Why not start out from that frame of mind? That’s how we did our first album. So that didn’t really bother me. I think that bothers other people more.

Certainly, again, in the British press, it bothers them immensely. We’re again criticized because it sounded like us and we haven’t got a clue as to what was going on, which kind of makes me smile, because I’m a consumer, as well. I buy records. I listen to music. I know very well what’s going on. But the hilarity is, had we come back and released a jungle album, and tried to be very 90s, it would have been completely absurd. I mean, we listen to jungle backstage, but I can’t really see us playing it. To me, it’s like I’ve never felt that we’re in competition with other people. I’ve always thought they we just offer another choice. So the gap didn’t really come into it.

PCC:
But having grown musically, is your whole perspective on The Cure’s music different from what it was 20 years ago, when you were starting out?

SMITH:
Yeah, I think the biggest difference is that I don’t sort of screen as much, for want of a better word. I think certainly the first four albums, the first five albums, there was much more of a mentality with what we did that it was us against the world. And that is probably true for most bands, when you start out, because you’re kind of fighting to be heard. And probably ever since the “Head on the Door” album, everything we’ve done, I’ve had a different feeling as to what we’ve done. I’m much more intent on creating something that I’m happy with. In some ways, it’s weird, because I haven’t cared as much about what other people think and yet, the album “The Head on the Door” has been the most popular one. So that’s weird.

PCC:
Do you worry much about image, how people are perceiving you?

SMITH:
Again, there’s not very much I can do about it. We can release a single like “Friday I’m In Love” and we’ll still get reviews that say we’re doom and gloom and say we’re the kings of mope rock and stuff. It’s just one of those things. There was a period in the early 80s when we were exploring a darker side of things and I was incredibly miserable and I was really fed up with everything. And I suppose that’s just stuck. It doesn’t seem to make any difference what we do. I think the people who people who like this group, fans of ours, realize there is a diversity in what we do.

The sets that we’re playing on this tour so far, we’re kind of covering just about everything. We’re playing for three hours. We play about 35 songs a night. And it’s kind of bringing it home to me - I think we’ve done about 75 songs already, in about 15 shows - that we can put together sets that are incredibly morose or we can put together this like stream of idiot pop single after idiot pop single. So it really depends on whether you like the band or not. I think people who don’t, it doesn’t really matter what we do, because they’ll always think of us dressed in black, living by candlelight.

PCC:
But what about personally, I’m sure a lot of people approach you and assume you are the king of darkness and gloom. That must be kind of a burden, isn’t it?

SMITH:
In the past, I used to kind of play along with it. I don’t know whether I didn’t want to disappoint people or whether I was just like so flattered, that I would play up to their preconceptions. But I haven’t done that since, I don’t know, certainly since “Disintegration.” I’m aware, when people come up to me, they do walk away disappointed, because they want me to somehow illuminate their lives. And I can’t. I can’t illuminate my own most of the time.

I don’t know, the only thing that ever really gets to me is if I feel that there’s a potential audience that has been put off the group, because of what they think we’re like. And they don’t really give us a chance. That’s the side of the media criticism of us that I don’t like.

I mean, on the personal side, there is a bunch of incredibly obsessive fans who read a lot more into what we do than sometimes is there. But the thing about it is, I’m really kind of loathe to criticize it, because they’re getting something out of what we’re doing, on an emotional level, which I can’t criticize, because I get that from it, as well. It’s just in a different way. So if people sometimes misinterpret…

The thing about it is, people forget that the songs come out of like a small part of life. About one percent of my time is to do with that side of creating things and the other 99 percent of my life is pretty normal in most regards. I shop. I cook. I wash up. I do normal things. But there is a small part of me that wants to create something. I think it’s that that people latch onto. But unfortunately, they think that is me. And it isn’t.

PCC:
But people, young people especially, when they’re depressed and they hear something they can relate to and identify with, it can create a bond, where they at least feel they’re not alone.

SMITH:
Yeah, I’ve done that myself in the past. I did it myself, when I was younger. And through being in The Cure, I’ve been to a lot of different places and met a lot of different people. And a lot of people, I’ve really got on with, a lot of people I empathize with. So I can really understand. It does make a difference knowing that someone else understands what you mean, particularly meeting people who are stuck in communities where they just don’t fit. And so their only recourse is a group like us. They kind of feel, “Well, there’s another world out there.”

When I was at home, growing up, living in Crawley, which is like a suburb, south of London, I used to listen to Jimi Hendrix. He used to make me think there is a f-cking brilliant world out there that this man lives in. And I used to want to live in it, as well. So I can understand it.

PCC:
So you felt like an outsider yourself, growing up?

SMITH:
Yeah. Half of me did.The weird thing is, I used to, well, still do occasionally play football. So I had a weird growing up. I’d play for the school football team, but then I’d also be one of the weirdos who was in a band. But I’ve always enjoyed both sides of life [laughs]. The thing is, it’s become very fashionable in England now to like soccer. Yet, through most of the last 20 years, people look at me incredulously when I say I like football. And I read books. Like you can’t possibly do both.

PCC:
The things that you want to explore in the music, does it tend to be less of the upbeat, happy things that inspire you lyrically?

SMITH:
Yeah, I’ve always found it much more difficult to write happy songs. And I think it’s probably because, when I’m happy, which I am a lot more of the time now, I don’t really write a song. I don’t feel motivated. My songwriting, originated out of, when I was very young, my Dad used to tell me, if there was anything bothering me, I should write it down. Externalizing it would solve half the problem, if I could look at it, look at what was bothering me. And it just grew out of that.

So it’s kind of something I developed, if things were bothering me, I would write them down and that turned into songwriting. So being happy doesn’t bother me [chuckles]. So a song like “Mint Car,” in some sense, is more contrived than the more miserable songs, the more downbeat songs, because I had to think how I feel when I’m happy and write it down, because when I am really happy, the last thing I want to do is sit down and get involved in writing a song, because I’m usually happy doing something else.

PCC:
But when you’re in a relationship that’s working well and everything seems great, do you have to worry about whether it’s going to have a negative effect creatively?

SMITH:
No, no [laughs]. The biggest difference in “Wild Mood Swings” and all the other albums is even a lot of the first-person songs are not me. I’ve been observing people a lot more. And there’s a lot of bad stuff that goes on without me having to be the focus of it. There’s also a degree of what I presume is still called “poetic license,” which people kind of miss. If I only wrote about what I really did, there would be very little subject matter. I mean, I do do a lot of things that, I suppose are out of the ordinarily, particularly when we’re on tour. But a lot of the songs are make-believe, just my way of entering a fantasy world. Because I am really happy.

I’ve got a home now, which I’ve never had before. And doing this tour is the first time I’ve really had to wrench myself away from somewhere that I can call home. And so the concert has to make it more worthwhile, so everyone has to pitch in and do a bit more. So I think that’s why the shows on this tour, I think, have been the best we have ever done, because I need them to be the best ones that we’ve ever done, because otherwise, I’d rather be at home.

PCC:
And home is in the country?

SMITH:
The seaside in England. By the beach.

PCC:
Are you married now?

SMITH:
Yeah, I’ve been married for eight years.

PCC:
That doesn’t turn out to be a problem with all the touring?

SMITH:
I haven’t found it does. But I’m married to somehow who loves me for what I am, for what I’m like. Otherwise it doesn’t work.

PCC:
Any kids?

SMITH:
No. And I don’t really think I’ll ever have them. I’ve got a lot of nephews and nieces though - 17 - and I much prefer the role of uncle to father.

PCC:
What do you enjoy about the role of uncle?

SMITH:
Well, it allows me to have very little responsibility and teach them all the bad things [laughs].

PCC:
Such as?

SMITH:
Like how to spit well. And why you can piss in car parks. No, it just means we can have them through a weekend and it just gives me an excuse to be really childish… and then hand them back over. It’s a bit selfish really. But it’s good. I had an uncle when I was very young and he was pretty weird and I really used to enjoy spending time with him. And I wanted to be an uncle like that, who they would look forward to come and see.

The age range is one-month old, to, my oldest nephew is 21 this year. So they all want different things. The older ones want my life experience. They want to ask me questions. They want to get the real answers, the proper answers to things that are going on in the playground. The younger ones just want to be taken out.

The thing about it is, in the time that I’ve had off, in the gaps that I’ve had, it also allowed me to re-establish ties with my family and also with friends that I haven’t seen in years. Because one of the things about being in a touring band, a band that doesn’t just work in the studio, you get cut off an awful lot from the outside world. It’s very difficult to maintain friendships and ties. And that has changed my perspective on a lot of things.

That has also added to my general happiness, because it’s made me less self-centered, having children around. I mean, Simon in the group’s got children and it does have an amazing difference on adults… sometimes not as much as it should, because a lot of people are frightened to let go. They do when they’re at home, but when they step outside and they’ve got kids, they become adults again. And I think it’s good to just kind of let go.

PCC:
There’s always the danger of letting the music become your whole world.

SMITH:
Yeah, well, it has. That’s why I needed to take a break. I realized at the end of the week that I didn’t have any other friends that weren’t part of the group, which I had needed. I felt quite scared by it. It felt unnatural.

PCC:
Is your wife involved in music?

SMITH:
She plays piano, but she doesn’t do it for a living.

PCC:
Are there any darker themes that you wanted to explore, maybe touching on aging and mortality?

SMITH:
I don’t know really. I found it quite difficult to arrive at the result that I wanted. It took me a lot of time to get the words right. And I think that probably the next thing we do would be instrumental. I’d like to do a film soundtrack, because I worry that I will start going on about getting older, like there’s anything I can do about it. There isn’t. And I’m never going to be resolved to the fact. I know that I’m not going to get any wiser. But I don’t really feel like I should delve into that. It isn’t the kind of thing people want to hear - certainly not the kind of thing I want to hear from anyone else.

I can get away with it like with the song “Want,” which in some ways does kind of reflect that. But it doesn’t matter what age you are - anyone who sits down and thinks, realizes that you make choices, you take options, you cut off all the other choices and you reduce all your other options. You choose a path and that’s it. You can’t go back and wish you’d done something different. And “Want” is a song basically around that theme.

But I don’t really want to be in a position where I’m either like self-congratulatory or I’m feeling sorry for myself. And the middle ground is becoming increasingly more difficult for me to get excited about, to write songs where I feel I can illuminate a subjects, that I can actually give something to other people to think about. In that respect, I’ve got back into reading a lot and I’m realizing that there are other people out there who can say things better. I would like just to do something that musically conveys emotion, rather than relying on me singing. And also, people wouldn’t be able to say, “Oh, that sounds like The Cure” [laughs]. They wouldn’t know.

PCC:
Would this be something along the lines of ambient music?

SMITH:
We’ve been talking with some people in London about getting involved in a film project, from the start, the inception, and actually following the whole thing through, getting involved in the production of it and actually helping with the financing and stuff. And doing the music. And that kind of project would be a challenge. I’m not really sure that I’d like to just go back into the studio and make another Cure album. I just don’t feel motivated. The gap, the four years in some ways, was because I didn’t feel like making a record. And I don’t ever want to go into the studio and think like, “Well, this is what I do for a living,” because it would just be wrong.

PCC:
Would The Cure be on camera, as well?

SMITH:
Uh… like a cameo, idiot, walk-on part [laughs]. Yeah, maybe. I don’t know. I’m just certainly to the point where I’d like to try something different.

PCC:
What sort of films do you tend to like, as an audience member?

SMITH:
I’m very diverse in my taste. But I have noticed, being over here, I’ve watched quite a lot of films I wouldn’t normally watch. And so many of them are bad. Most films are so obvious. You know how the film is going to end, five minutes into it. The only film that really interested me that I’ve seen in the last month was “Twelve Monkeys,” and that was only purely because I wasn’t sure, because it was Terry Gilliam, if it was going to have a happy ending. He’s one of the few people in cinema today, on a bigger scale, who will make a film where it isn’t a feel-good film, where it isn’t necessarily going to be a happy ending. And that’s what’s wrong with most films.

If you know how it’s going to finish up, it’s either going to be like this sickly, sentimental, maudlin, “Oh, isn’t that sad?” Or “Let’s go out of the cinema and feel really happy.” There’s seems to be very little real experimenting going on. It’s funny, we talked on the bus yesterday, we recently saw “Jacob’s Ladder.” I had no expectations and I remember watching it and as it went on, I thought, “This is a brilliant idea, really, really well executed.” And it’s that kind of film, the film that makes you think, where you’re not quite sure what’s going on, that’s the kind of film I find worth seeing.

PCC:
Doing “Saturday Night Live,” was that a big decision - doing American live TV?

SMITH:
In the past I’ve always felt rather uncomfortable with the notion of doing that sort of show. But I really wanted us to come back and effectively say, “This is us. This is The Cure. This is what we look like. This is what we do.” It was just like an easy, three-minute hit. Although it didn’t really work. It was a very uncomfortable atmosphere and I felt very ill at ease.

PCC:
Why was it so uncomfortable?

SMITH:
I don’t know. I was just in a very weird frame of mind that day. I don’t know. It was one of those things.

PCC:
You met with Jerry Seinfeld after the show. Were you familiar with his work?

SMITH:
Yeah, I think he’s really funny. I also met Dennis Rodman, which was even more of a thrill [laughs].

PCC:
You follow the NBA?

SMITH:
Not really, but I like him. I think he’s a good personality. It was funny. No one dared make any jibes about me wearing makeup, because he had full makeup on, as well, and he didn’t get any shit for it.

PCC:
And you’re into hockey?

SMITH:
Not really. I’m just wearing an NHL shirt each night. It’s sort of a mixture of saves me having to think about what I’m going to wear and a kind of creepiness, when I walk out on stage and people cheer just because of the fact that I’m wearing a shirt. Some of them are quite appealing. I haven’t worn one every night, because some of the teams’ colours are so hideous, I refuse to wear them. I think Philadelphia was about the worst so far. But some of them are really good. Like the Penguins one is excellent, really good shirt. Tonight’s one is a bit weird, it’s got a big picture of an Indian on the front [Portland]. I’m not sure if I’m going to pull it off tonight.

I don’t even know who the team is until I get there, apart from the Penguins, because when they won the Stanley Cup, I actually went for a drink with them. I think that was ’92, the “Wish” tour. They were throwing a party. We were playing in PIttsburgh and the local promoter got us an invite. We didn’t know who they were or what the Stanley Cup was. We just went along and sat ourselves in this roomful of these incredibly big, drunken blokes. And there was kind of tense atmosphere for about half a minute. And I think it was Lemieux, Mario Lemieux, came up and bought me a beer and the ice melted. And we got on very well. I had no idea what they were talking about, but I just pretended that I did. I haven’t seen a hockey game yet, but I intend to go to one before we leave, seriously. I feel duty bound.

PCC:
Are you going to do something big for the 20th anniversary of the band?

SMITH:
I’m not sure. The last anniversary thing we did was probably marking 10 years. So we’re probably due. And we’ll probably do some kind of video - 20 years of The Cure. We’ve got a couple ideas, kind of more unusual things - my Top 10 Cure songs reinterpreted, played on different instruments… or acoustically or something. And we’re doing a book and we might tie that in with an interactive CD-Rom that will interact with our website and all that.

There are a million and one ideas. We’ve drawn up a list, practical and impractical suggestions. The best impractical one was to get all the ex-members of The Cure together and do an L.A. show, a New York show and a London show and a Paris show and do five nights in each place, with five different lineups, same songs from that period. The likelihood of that happening is pretty remote [laughs]. But you never know.

PCC:
The number 20, does that have a special significance to you, just having survived that long as a band?

SMITH:
Yeah, I think it’s a combination of things that kind of tells me that next year should mark a change in what we do, certainly in what I do, because I just feel that I’m getting to an age, as well, where I am running out of time to learn how to do something different. I need to explore other avenues. It’ll be good. I just don’t want to keep going on with The Cure for no good reason.

I mean, it’s always there. Even if we celebrate 20 years and we don’t do anything for another 10, if I ever want to sort of like dig it back up, not for like a reunion thing, but like the name’s still there. I think there would be a tacit understanding between everybody that we have reached a point where that’s it, that we have already done what we wanted to do as The Cure. And we can still work together, but maybe do it under a different name. And have a clean start. Because I’m really proud of the history, like I said earlier on, it does carry with it a certain amount of baggage.

PCC:
So the 20th year will probably bring some sort of halt to The Cure?

SMITH:
Yes, I think so. I mean, the others kind of nervously laugh, when I say it. But I think they all, somewhere inside, realize that there’s something right about it. It feels right. I would like us, as a group, to survive this year and do something next year. But I don’t really want to just like carry on in the same way and celebrate 25 years of The Cure, because it just doesn’t feel right.

PCC:
When you talk about it being time to learn to do something else, is that an exciting proposition or a scary one?

SMITH:
A mixture of both, really. I know that I can do this. I’ve always played music and it seems like I’ve always written songs. To attempt to do something else, whether it be involved with film or even actually just sitting down and giving myself a year to write something with more substance to it, I know I might not be able to do it. So there is a mixture of both those things.

But the thing is, I’m aware that I can fall into complacency, because I know that what we do can be really good and I know that I can create something that other people will find appealing. But there has to be an element where I’m pushing myself and finding something out about myself - otherwise, it doesn’t mean anything. And I think with this new lineup, with Jason [Cooper, drums] coming into the group, it has given me a spark and I’m determined that this will be the best tour we’ve done and they’re going to be the best concerts.

And I’ve told everyone, if I see anyone with a long face, if I hear anyone moaning about the stuff that we’re doing, then they can just go, because, if I’m doing it, and I’m happy, then everyone should be.That’s the way it works [laughs]. So I don’t want to just keep doing it because it’s my job, because it’s never been like that.

PCC:
Do you think maybe several years down the line, in retrospect, people will have a more favorable reaction to “Wild Mood Swings”?

SMITH:
Well, that’s what I always think about, and especially this time. Because the reaction was kind of muted, I thought, give us a year. And I think when it’s compared to other albums that have been released this year, it will be up there. Well, I think it is, anyway. Of course, if I put it out and I thought it was rubbish, I would be an idiot.