By Paul Freeman [2002 Interview]

Her life and career have been tumultuous, filled with traumatic episodes. But those can't diminish the fact that Sinéad O'Connor has displayed a transcendent brilliance as an artist. Beyond the hellish headlines, there has always been that heavenly voice.

Coming from deep within her soul, vulnerable yet strong, O'Connor's singing evokes powerful emotions.

She has demonstrated courage in her work and her activism, speaking forthrightly on religion, women's rights, war, Irish politics and child abuse.

The singer-songwriter shot to fame with her exquisite 1990 interpretation of Prince's "Nothing Compares 2 U." She has created a wondrous and diverse body of original work. But controversies and health issues have plagued her.

Nonetheless, her music continues to speak for itself.

We spoke with O'Conner following the release of 2002's "Sean-Nós Nua" album, which offered modernized versions of traditional Irish folk songs.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
Is this a project that you've been wanting to get into for a while?

SINEAD O'CONNOR:
Yeah, I've been trying to make the record for about 12 years. But whenever I was going to make it, labels, they just didn't get it. So I was trying to make it at a time now when I was kind of between labels. I'd just come off Atlantic and kind of waiting to see what I'll do with the future. So I just wanted to get this done before I sign any deals with anybody else.

PCC:
Was it also just a good time for you to turn back and look at your roots?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, but I guess even more importantly, it was a good time for me, because I guess I'm 35 now. And when I was 17, I signed my first record deal. And from that time that you sign that, you, in a certain way, give up your creative freedom. And if a record company are paying you huge advances, then they want hit records. And so that governs the kind of record that you get to make. So I guess it was an important time for me, in terms of creative freedom.

PCC:
You've always seemed to be able to mesh, to some degree, the modern with the traditional elements. Is that something that's a conscious choice or just part of you?

O'CONNOR:
I think both. Sometimes it's unconscious, because that's just me. And other times I am quite consciously trying to do it. Like with this record, that's what I was very consciously trying to do, yeah.

PCC:
The title, it refers to the combination of old and new?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, "Sean-Nós Nua" means "old style, but new." The "Sean-Nós" refers to the style of Irish music which was just oral, songs with no music. And the new is obviously about f-cking it up with bass and beats and stuff.

PCC:
During the gestation period, did you know exactly how you wanted to put this together?

O'CONNOR:
Yea, very much so. I knew I wanted Donal Lunny and Adrian Sherwood [the producers]. And I knew i wanted to mix up on the Irish language tracks a kind of Jamaican, roots reggae feel. And stuff like that.

PCC:
Did you have any qualms or questions about how much to change the traditional material?

O'CONNOR:
No, not really. I guess you've just got to follow your own instincts. I guess my only rule for making records is that you should do them because you will go mad, if you don't. So you should kind of do what you've got to do to prevent yourself from going bonkers [laughs].

PCC:
This seem like it would have been a joyful process, working with this group of people.

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, very much so. And certainly, in one way, it was very much a team effort. Even though it's my name on the record, it was pretty much a co-op. And everybody put equal amounts of love into the record and they're amazing people to work with, the people who played on the record. And it was great fun. Obviously very relaxed. And I felt very much like I could be myself. There was no pressure and there was no Sinéad O'Connor bullshit. A lot of the people on the record are kind of stars in their own right, on the Irish scene.So there was no sense of being a captain of anything, but there were many captains.

PCC:
So there was a sense of camaraderie.

O'CONNOR:
Yeah.

PCC:
What about the process of choosing the songs -- was that difficult?

O'CONNOR:
No, I guess I knew all the songs, apart from "Lord Franklin," which Donal Lunny taught me. But before that, I had heard a lot of the songs when I was a kid. And some of them when I was older, living outside of Ireland. So they're just songs that I've been in love with for a long time.

PCC:
Were you looking for a variety of material, or just songs that meant something to you personally?

O'CONNOR:
I guess they were the songs that meant something to me personally, that I was really moved by. I could make a whole two or three other albums, there are so many other songs I've been moved by. You know? I subconsciously chose these ones, but I noticed that there's a theme kind of in all of them, is that they're almost ghost stories.

There's something quite ghostly about all of them. They all have these people who appear when you sing them. They're very much all also about enduring love, love that survives all types of difficulties or whatever. But that was quite a subconscious theme. I guess it's just because I'm female or something.

PCC:
Those elements are ingrained in you and that's why you were attracted to these songs?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, I'm always fascinated with the area of kind of psychic studies and life-after-death and the everlastingness of the soul. And so, I love lots of Irish songs, but these songs are the ones, to me, that speak about the soul and the enduringness of the soul and of love, as well. I think there's a huge subtext in a lot of these songs. That's the thing to pay attention to, that often they're not actually about what you think they're about on the face of it. They have messages within their subtext, all about the everlastingness of the soul and enduringness of love.

PCC:
What would be some examples of these songs that really sparked some special memories for you?

O'CONNOR:
Well, for me, my favorite song on the record is the one that's called "The Moorlough Shore," the subtext of which, it's really all about how, if you are very impulsive and you run away from problems in your life, you find yourself in more trouble and more lonesome than you would have been if you'd stayed and braved it out. So it's kind of a warning against being too impulsive. It shows this old man who now regrets very much having run away from his home in his impulsive youth. And over the course of his lifetime, he loves his woman and his land. So again, it's an enduring love kind of a song.

"Lord Baker," I kind of compare a lot with the "Song of Solomon." It's a similar type of journey, a similar type of relationship, although I like in that song, the woman kind of represents God. And it's unusual for God to be represented as a woman. And again, there's a passage in the "Song of Solomon," which I love, which goes, "Many waters cannot quench love. Neither can the floods drown it. If a man would give up all the substance of his house for love, he'd be utterly scorned." And that song reminds me a lot of that. The relationship between Lord Baker and the Turkish princess is very similar.

Let me see, "Peggy Gordon" -- they're all kind of similar. They're all songs of people who love despite not being loved back.

PCC:
In addition to the lyrical content, were there some of these songs that really brought you back to specific times or people and you responded to them that way?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, I mean, the melodies of some of the songs are very powerful. Like the "Moorlough Shore" is very powerful. "Paddy's Lament" I think is a very powerful song, which for me, I heard it when I was living in Los Angeles during the Gulf War. It was done by a band, I think it was the Bothy Band. And it was sung by a great Irish singer called Mary Black. She has a very powerful voice and a great, lamenting kind of a voice. For Irish singing, you do have to have a kind of a lamenting tone in your voice. You know?

And living in L.A. during the middle of the bloody Gulf War and all of that going on, it was a very powerful time to be exposed to a song like that, which is about an Irish man conscripted into the army during the Civil War here. And so it's, I think, a very powerful anti-war song. I like it, too, because it doesn't make judgments. It doesn't judge anyone for feeling like going to war. It's just an old man kind of expressing his concerns for our safety.

"Molly Malone" I learned from my dad, when I was a kid. The two Irish language songs ["Óró, Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile" and"Báidín Fheilimí"] I learned when I was at school. Also "I'll Tell Me Ma," I learned at school.

PCC:
During your childhood, I know it was a painful childhood, was music the brightest element of that time?

O'CONNOR:
Music and religion. Yeah. And I don't really separate the two. Both of those things.

PCC:
So music, at its best, would have some element of spirituality?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, for me, definitely. The artists I'm inspired by mostly, like Bob Dylan or John Lennon or Van Morrison, even people like Nina Simone, and I'm a huge roots reggae fan, I love Buju Banton and Sizzla and all those kind of people, who mix up spirituality and sexuality on records. But I guess I come from a culture which has separated those two things.

PCC:
Did you analyze how this would work with the modernization? Or did you just go by instinct?

O'CONNOR:
I sort of analyzed it, because, like I say, it was 12 years in the birthing. I've kind of been in labor with this record for 12 years. I've been planning it and plotting it and thinking about it for a long time, so I was pretty sure what I wanted. And this is who I wanted producing it and playing on it and all that stuff.

PCC:
You mentioned the spiritual nature. Do you think that's part of the general appeal of Celtic music, the reason it has such a lasting, universal appeal?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, I do. I think, because they speak to the soul, it's really sort of soul music in a big way. They are songs which, obviously they are ghosts, they are the voices of people who lived, but still live, even though you can't see them. So I think that they remind all of us that there is a soul, which lives and which endures through all things, including death.

PCC:
Are there particular elements of the music, the emotion or whatever, that you think have given it such a strong appeal?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, I guess it's the emotional honesty, the kind of rawness. And I love that society kind of said that certain feelings cannot be discussed or talked about and music has always been an area where people can express feelings which are difficult to express in other areas of life. Yeah, I think there's a lot of pain in the songs and I think people identify with that, because often, the world doesn't allow us to express our pain.

Often, for example, if you're in pain and you call your friends, they'll run a million miles away. Sometimes they won't, but that's how you know a good friend. But sometimes the people who love us can't bear to see us in pain. And so we don't get to express pain. But we all feel pain over one thing or another. So it's quite handy when there are songs which one can listen to that allow one to express emotions that we are not allowed to express in other areas of life.

PCC:
Historically, do you think the Irish culture has been able to better deal with pain through music?

O'CONNOR:
I certainly think that's true of Ireland, yeah. We as a race have had a massive amount of pain to cope with. And I think, yeah, the oppressed always sing. But there's also another saying, which I love, an old Latin saying, which I don't know the Latin for, but it says, "He who sings, prays twice." To a certain extent, the Irish songs are prayers, also. That's what's going on in the subtext, that people who are oppressed will use their voices to call out to God.

PCC:
So you feel some sense of mission in bringing this music into the 21st century?

O'CONNOR:
I suppose I do. But more for Ireland, I guess I feel a small sense of mission. There's more of a political undertone in this record, also, which is to do with the state of Ireland at the moment, the things which are going on in Ireland politically at the moment. It's very much a record for Ireland, in my mind.

PCC:
How does it reflect the political landscape?

O'CONNOR:
Well, for example, one of the things which is happening in Ireland at the moment, which I think is a beautiful miracle, is the fact that many different races of people are choosing Ireland as a place to live, many refugees and asylum seekers and that. But there's been a big backlash against these people, because quite a lot of Irish people are afraid to lose what they thought was their culture and let it change into something new.

So I guess I was also with this record trying to illustrate how you could actually blend all these other different races of people with what was old about Irish culture and make something new and beautiful out of all of those cultures, like what happened in London or America. Ireland is probably 60 years behind America or England in terms of its multi-cultural development.

PCC:
Do you think it's vital for any culture that's going to stay alive to remain open to change?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, absolutely. A culture has got to be movable and open-minded, yeah, and not fixed its ideas and not thinking in black-and-white fashion. But I also think another thing strongly, that a lot of younger generation people, myself included, kind of find it tempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater, when it comes to the old and traditional. But I'm quite interested in keeping what's good about the old and traditional and helping it to hold hands with what's good about the future and helping them not to be afraid of each other, to have respect for what's good about each other.

PCC:
As you say, a lot of people who want change just want to turn their backs on what's come before. Why?

O'CONNOR:
A lot of young people don't want to know about what's traditional. They think it's boring. But that's because of the way it's been delivered to them, as well. So I guess by making a record like this, I'm trying to put, if you like, the sex back into the Irish music and make it slightly more appealing to younger people. Irish culture has been very sexless. I mean, there isn't even a word in the Irish language for sex.

PCC:
Why do you think it's so essential to keep the tradition alive?

O'CONNOR:
Well, it's not so much that it's essential, but it won't ever die, because it's an everlasting thing. It's essential to not throw the baby out with the bathwater and not to judge too harshly. It's not so much essential to keep it alive, but it's essential to acknowledge its existence. We're great ones in Ireland for burying things under the carpet. My little brother calls it "the pink elephant syndrome," where there's an elephant in the room, but everyone's pretending it's not there. Do you know what I mean?

This culture is alive and traditional things are alive, whether they're to do with religion or music. So we can't just pretend they're not there. There's a lot to be honored about the old and traditional. But equally, there's a lot to be honored about what's new and unknown.

PCC:
The purists -- what are you expecting from them, in terms of reaction?

O'CONNOR:
There may be some shock at first. Then I think they'll probably appreciate that those things have to change, if you want them to appeal to a younger audience or a wider audience. And I guess I'm hoping, in a way, the album might inspire certain writers in Ireland to start writing the caliber of songs that have been written in the past out of Ireland.

Like when you compare these songs, for example, to what's been coming out of Ireland at the moment, like Westlife and Boyzone, it kind of illustrates that there has been in the past an enormous high caliber of artistry coming out of Ireland. And, in way, it would be quite nice, if all of us, myself included, could get back to that type caliber of songwriting and get away from the "Oooh, baby" business.

I'd like to see us get back to what music was for in the first place, which was to express difficult emotions and cope with difficult emotions, so that one's soul could communicate with one. Nowadays, the pop scene is all about, "Oh, baby, why don't you love me?" or "Oh, baby, can I spank your ass and call you bitch?"

There's a tradition in Irish music called "keening," and it comes from the Irish word "caoineadh," which means "to cry," where you would employ women to come to funerals to make the sounds of grieving and of crying to help the bereaved to express their feelings. So Irish music has always been used as something to help people express feelings that they might otherwise block out, on the understanding that it is unhealthy and sick-making to block off your feelings.

But what's happened in Irish songwriting is often that people are actually blocking off feelings. They all talk about broken-up love affairs, but they don't talk about very difficult, grievous things that people go through in lives, like losses or death or fears.

PCC:
We hear about Irish music being at a peak of commercial popularity, do you find that ironic then?

O'CONNOR:
Well, yeah, I do, in a way, because artistically, I wouldn't say it was at a peak. Materialistically, it is at a peak. But I would think at a soul level, it's on a real valley.

PCC:
But you believe a modernization, while retaining the essence of the traditional, could remedy that?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, just to pump it up and make it a bit more appealing and sexy. More rock 'n' roll.

PCC:
Are you also interested in passing on the traditions to your own children?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah, in a lot of ways, yeah. I don't know what my children are going to want to do with themselves as they get older, but funnily enough, my daughter, who's only six, kind of has not been interested in any of my records, except for this one. She's gone mental over this one.

PCC:
Why do you think that is?

O'CONNOR:
I don't know. I think it just speaks to her soul. Again, she's only six, but she is an Irish soul and people who live in Ireland say that even the landscape remembers, that everywhere you look, the place is haunted, full of ghosts. You hear things everywhere. And I guess she's just picking up on that. It's talking to her soul of a little Irish person.

PCC:
And you have a son in his teens -- how is he reacting to the album?

O'CONNOR:
Oh, he loves it, as well. But he would never tell anybody. He would only tell me that with nobody listening. He listens to horrorcore rap like Insane Clown Posse and all that lot.

PCC:
Do you know what's next for you?

O'CONNOR:
Next, I'm just working on songs for an album of my own songs. Then I've got lots of other of these types of albums that I'd like to make. Like I'd like to make a country album. I'd like to make a kind of religious album at some point. And I'm going to keep on making my own records, as well. So I just started writing and recording for my own record and I start touring this record soon.

PCC:
Do you find that increasingly, the media is more willing to concentrate on your music and whatever vital political issues are involved, rather than lifestyle and those sorts of distractions?

O'CONNOR:
It's 50-50. Some concentrate on the music and then, obviously, the more tabloid-y ones kind of want to know about everything else, like what kind of knickers you're wearing that day.

PCC:
So do you just accept that as a kind of a necessary evil?

O'CONNOR:
Yeah and you just learn, as you get older, to steer it back to whatever it is that you want to talk about.

PCC:
Has it been easy for you to ignore the trends in the marketplace and just make the music that you want to make?

O'CONNOR:
Well, it is now that I'm not on a mainstream label, yeah, because it's not the same pressure. Because obviously, understandably, if a mainstream label have forked out a ton of money for you, they want you to be making hit records.

PCC:
But this music is so beautiful. Do you think it might surprise people by how great an appeal it has?

O'CONNOR:
That's what I really believe, yeah. I think the mainstream labels have been quite wrong, in that they didn't get it. But I think it is a record that could break into all kinds of areas. Songs like "I'll Tell Me Ma" sound like country songs to me.

PCC:
If people listen to it, they'll be moved by it.

O'CONNOR:
Thanks very much.