By Paul Freeman [2000 Interview]

Steely Dan always traveled their own unique musical path.

Donald Fagen (keyboards, lead vocals) and Walter Becker (bass, guitar, backing vocals) drew from jazz and R&B to forge their own sophisticated rock sound. With intelligent, clever lyrics, strong melodic hooks, plus intricate rhythms and harmonies, they perfected memorable songs in the studio.

After being part of the Jay and the Americans touring band, Fagen and Becker established themselves as songwriters and session musicians. In 1972, the debut Steely Dan album sprang forth with the smash singles "Reelin' in the Years" and "Do It Again."

By 1975, they had abandoned touring to concentrate on composing and recording. In 1981, Steely Dan disbanded. But their fervent following never waned.

We spoke with Fagen in 2000, following the release of "Two Against Nature," their first studio album in 20 years. It won four Grammy Awards. They resumed touring. In 2001, Steely Dan was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Becker passed in 2017. But Fagen continues to keep Steely Dan active on the road.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
With that long a gap between albums, do you go into the studio with any trepidation? Or just eagerness? What was the feeling?

DONALD FAGEN:
Well, Walter and I have actually worked together, in the 80s and 90s, on various projects, including some solo albums. So for us, it really wasn't going in after 20 years. But it sort of, more of less, grew out of, we've been playing live in most of the summers lately and we wanted to play some new material. That was basically it.

PCC:
Why did you decide to begin playing live again and what drove away from that to begin with?

FAGEN:
Our first album came out in '72 and we toured with a six-man band for a few years and then quit in '75, just because we didn't much like touring at the time, because of various reasons. And we just concentrated on making records throughout the rest of the 70s. We rehearsed a couple of bands to go out during that time, but it just never came together.

In the 90s, both of us got involved with a project called The New York Rock & Soul Revue (co-founded by singer/producer Libby Titus, Fagen's future wife] and we were both members of that revue. And in the revue, we sang a couple of old songs and the audiences really liked them.

So we started touring again. These are much better conditions, finally with a band that we felt was really excellent.

PCC:
So it's just a matter of having the right circumstances?

FAGEN:
Yeah, pretty much.

PCC:
The new album, was it daunting, realizing what fans' expectations would be?

FAGEN:
Not really. We never really wrote for audiences as much as to entertain ourselves really. I think probably our own expectations was the only thing we were nervous about meeting. But as it went on, we knew we had something that was interesting to us.

PCC:
And you just know you're going to go in there and make your own kind of music, without worrying about trends?

FAGEN:
Yeah, you know, to tell you the truth, we're not even that conversant with trends [laughs]. We came out of jazz and we grew up in the 50s and 60s, listening to jazz as kids... and rhythm & blues. So that's really what we know.

I think that there are some interesting musical things on this record that we've never done before. And also I think the lyrics are far more polished and concise. But I think that the innovations, if any, are subtle.

PCC:
In terms of the lyrics, do you find that the perspective has changed over the years?

FAGEN:
Yeah, well, I think you definitely have a different perspective, from around age 50. Although, I don't know if we were ever... even when we were adolescents, unlike a lot of people in pop music, there was something mature about our viewpoint, even in the 70s. People have told me that. And I've seen a lot of reviews to that effect. And I think that's probably true. Maybe we didn't have as much fun as everybody else.

PCC:
What is the writing process like?

FAGEN:
Pretty much the same. We get together in a small workroom and I play the piano and Walter will play the bass and sometimes, in the last few years, he also mans a computer. As soon as we have something that we feel is the foundation for a song, Walter will sequence it on a computer, just so we have some help when we're arranging. It just makes it easier, to play it back as kind of a blueprint of what the record will finally be.

PCC:
So do you find that technological advances have enhanced the creativity in some ways?

FAGEN:
It just makes things easier sometimes than they were in the past, as far as editing and that kind of thing. We do it pretty much the same way. Also, we were using a lot of technology towards the end of the 70s. In fact, our engineer, Roger Nichols, kind of invented the sampling sequencer actually for one of our records. So we're pretty used to technology.

PCC:
As far as integrating the lyrics into the melody, does that come about naturally? Do you try to create some sort of juxtaposition?

FAGEN:
Well, I think Walter and I have always been interested in the kind of irony that can be generated between the lyric and the music. So that's something that comes pretty naturally to us. But on a very simple level, it would be the idea of having some kind of trenchant lyric with sweet-sounding music or vice-versa. But I think you can get a lot of effects by contrasting lyrics and music. I think that's true. It can actually get very subtle effects in a way.

PCC:
Do you work at getting a combination of complexity and accessibility? Or is that just built into what you do?

FAGEN:
I think it's built in. The kind of stuff we like tends to be generally accessible. And the songs are really a combination of stuff we like, which has to do with humor and jazz harmony and a certain rhythmic feel. So we just sort of combine everything that's fun for us to do.

PCC:
And humor, is that something that you find rarely in the pop music scene these days?

FAGEN:
Well, I think you find that really anytime in pop music. There is a lot of humor in blues. And in jazz, I think you'll find more humor than in standard pop music. In fact, musicians, especially jazz musicians, have a special brand of humor which, I think maybe has been absorbed by the media in recent years, involving a lot of irony.

I would say, in fact, the sort of satirical humor on say, "Saturday Night Live," which is sort of the generation of people we grew up with, probably started with jazz musicians and swing musicians, a kind of a deep, deep irony.

PCC:
So will that pave the way for more interest in jazz music?

FAGEN:
Unfortunately, a lot of the humor has gone out of jazz to a certain degree. But I'm not as up on new jazz as I might be. So I really can't say, actually. Charles Mingus, in his compositions, had a lot of humor. Duke Ellington.

And then there was a time when rhythm & blues had a lot of humor, in the late 40s and 50s. Leiber and Stoller particularly wrote a lot of very funny songs like "Charlie Brown" and "Yakety Yak," stuff like that.

PCC:
When your lyrics, your songs, are misinterpreted, does that amuse you? Or is that frustrating?

FAGEN:
A little of both, I think. For instance, on my solo album, "The Nightfly," there was a song called "I.G.Y.," which is also known as "What a Beautiful World," which is said with a really sort of deadpan irony. But I've gotten a lot of calls from corporations wanting to use the song, because they're really perceiving it on a pretty flat level. I think it's probably lucky for them that I'd never let anybody use it for a commercial.

PCC:
What about the new album, do you find that some people are missing the point on some of the songs?

FAGEN:
Actually, I find that most of press we've talked to and a lot of people that write into the website, that there's a much more sophisticated audience out there now, by far. I'm actually amazed at the intelligence with which they are listening to the record.

PCC:
The internet -- do you see that opening up a lot of new possibilities for you?

FAGEN:
You know, I don't really enjoy the internet too much. Walter, my partner, he really is more of a net guy. Although we have had a website for a number of years. That allows us an outlet for some of the extra-musical stuff we do, like writing poison pen letters and humor columns and stuff like that.

PCC:
It seems like you have an unusually devoted core of fans.

FAGEN:
They're very devoted, very smart, generally speaking. And we depend on them for a lot of stuff... like for our living [laughs]. We have great fans.

PCC:
Should they expect an album more than once every 20 years now?

FAGEN:
Well, we do have some songs left over from this outing, which we'll probably finish eventually. So for the next one, we won't be starting from scratch. Right now we're really focused on working on our touring band for the summer and having a really entertaining show.

PCC:
The prospect of going out with new material must be exciting.

FAGEN:
Oh, yeah. That was our primary reason for starting to write new material, because we were really getting bored. Like we went out for three years, and we did have some material from our solo albums, but we wanted to do something together from the get-go that we could just play fresh with a new band.

PCC:
But even now, there must be certain songs you just can't leave out of the set.

FAGEN:
Yeah, I guess we'll still do some songs people ask for, but there'll be some new stuff and also we're going to be reviving some tunes we haven't played live from some of the old albums, as well.

PCC:
So it's important to keep even the old material fresh for yourselves.

FAGEN:
Yeah, pretty much.

PCC:
And how difficult is that, finding new interpretations?

FAGEN:
We do rearrange things from time to time, especially some of the older things, from the early 70s. Some of the old things, we feel like they work better on stage, if they're expanded or reinterpreted. It's sort of more fun for us.

PCC:
I seem to remember an interview, I'm not sure if it was you or Walter, one of you saying you wanted to be a dirty old man, when you grew up.

FAGEN:
I think we're very close to that now... if we haven't achieved it already [laughs].

PCC:
[Laughs] But you are working towards it?

FAGEN:
I certainly hope so, yes, for our sakes.

PCC:
Do you believe that, inherently, quality music will be timeless? Or is that dependent on the whims of the audience at the time?

FAGEN:
That's not for me to say. I guess we really don't know any other way to make records or conduct a rehearsal except the way that we do it. And I just hope that there's at least somebody to listen. If we're playing clubs in five to 10 years, that's okay, too, as long as like there's somebody there. If we get a few people in a room, we'll like it.

PCC:
You began recording the new album in '96. It took quite a while to complete.

FAGEN:
We were sort of planning it in '96. We actually did most of the writing in '97. And the actual recording in '98 and '99. It did take too long, I think. I have no explanation except that we were working on maybe twice as many songs as appeared on the record and as time went on, some of them just dropped out and we would get interested in one song and start neglecting some of the others. So it took a long time.

PCC:
Do you both tend to be perfectionists in the studio?

FAGEN:
Yeah, because Walter and I come out of the jazz world, initially, because jazz music is more complex and sometimes there's more musicians involved who have to be coordinated. Just the level of playing, it's always been just normal for bands to have a certain level of professionalism. We're big Duke Ellington fans. And I think we just come out of a time when there were different values, really. For us it's just normal for everybody to play together in a certain way.

PCC:
The fact that you do expect that certain level of musicianship, do you also appreciate music that happens fairly spontaneously?

FAGEN:
I actually like a lot of things that are very sort of casual. I like that, too. It's just, what we do, it wouldn't work, because of the number of musicians involved and the complexity. It would sound really chaotic. Also, Walter and I, our playing is on a much more casual level than the rest of the band. So I think we probably add the chaos, when we play.

PCC:
What is the chemistry, the balance between the two of you? What is it? Why does it work?

FAGEN:
I don't know. I just don't know. I think we had similar experiences as children, to a certain extent, especially musically. And we like to read and so on. And I think we defined ourselves, at a very early age, as being outside the prevailing culture we grew up in, to some extent. And that may have a lot to do with it. And we're both from the New York area. But I guess that's maybe for other people to figure out.

PCC:
You defined yourselves generally as being outside the culture? Or just musically?

FAGEN:
Well, I think generally speaking. Neither of us watches much TV. We just have a certain angle on things. We're not big sports fans. I don't think we're real guys, in the sense of what most guys sort of like. I think we're much more introverted in a certain way.

It's hard to exactly say. But it's true -- I've never really felt comfortable in the culture, that's for sure. I think that's why we live in New York, because that's traditionally a place where people go who don't fit into their little towns.

PCC:
But do you think having individualistic personalities lends itself to creating more distinctive music?

FAGEN:
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Absolutely.

For the latest news on Steely Dan, visit www.steelydanoffical.com.