A myriad of discerning artists have covered Van Zandt tunes, including Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson, Emmylou Harris, Eric Andersen, Ramblin' Jack Elliott, Cowboy Junkies, Steve Earle, Guy Clark, Bob Dylan, Robert Earl Keen, Nanci Griffith, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, John Gorka, Gillian Welch, Norah Jones, Lyle Lovett, Jerry Jeff Walker, Doc Watson, Lucinda Williams, The Lemonheads and Natalie Maines.

A songwriter's songwriter, the Texan's work reflected his masterful storytelling ability. He displayed a wonderfully wry wit and a rare degree of empathy. He could make the audience chuckle... or move them profoundly. He was no stranger to tragedy. And that was often mirrored in his songs.

With his plaintive voice, lovely, lilting melodies and sensitive, sad, eloquent lyrics, he could break your heart. He wrote with uncompromising honesty, often giving voice to the voiceless, the lost and forgotten. Van Zandt had the soul of a poet... and the melancholia that often comes with that.

Van Zandt, who had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, had a rare gift for songwriting, but also a genius for self-destruction. Years of drug and alcohol abuse contributed to his dying of cardiac arrythmia on NewYear's Day, 1997, at age 52.

I interviewed Van Zandt following the release of 1994's "No Deeper Blue." The album was recorded at Xeric Studios, Limerick, Ireland. It features Irish musicians and was produced by Philip Donnelly, who had played guitar on Van Zandt's 1978 album, "Flyin' Shoes."

"No Deeper Blue" turned out to be Van Zandt's final studio album prior to his passing. There have been a number of notable posthumous releases, including 2019's "Sky Blue," which was overseen by his wife, Jeanene.

POP CULTURE CLASSICS:
I'm really enjoying the new album, "No Deeper Blue."

TOWNES VAN ZANDT:
Well, thanks. Those Irish guys can play, that's for sure. Philip Donnelly with the arrangements. It all worked out really good.

PCC:
Beyond the musicians, what did the whole atmosphere of Ireland add to the album?

VAN ZANDT:
I just wanted to step out a little bit and make it not like Nashville, not like L.A., not like New York. It came to me in a dream. And it came true. We got it done.

PCC:
How did the dream present itself?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, I was asleep. I used to live in a place here in Nashville called The Rock and Roll Hotel. I had this vivid dream all of a sudden. Said, "You've got to go to Ireland and cut your next record with Philip Donnelly producing it." Philip had played on a couple of my albums before. Still a guitar player, but turned producer, too. And I walked into the other room, turned on the light... and there was Philip's phone number.

I called it, 3:30 in the morning, said, "Philip, I got a plan. See what you think. I'm going to come over there and record this album. I need to write four or five more new songs and get some money together." And his words were "Splendid!" "Lovely!" They're all very Irish, right? And we pulled it all together. I don't know how it happened. It was about an eight-month process, between the songs and the money and the players. We did two songs a day for eight days, in Limerick, Ireland. And it couldn't have been nicer. And I then I did a 21-day tour after that. Couldn't have been nicer.

I never listen to my own stuff, much. Once it gets to me, Paul, in CD form, and I hear it and everything is correct -- because you play it and then you listen to the mix and then you listen to this and then you listen to that and then you listen to the final, in-the-wrapping, CD -- then it's on to the next. It's kind of deep. It is kind of deep.

PCC:
But do you ever go back and listen to the material from years ago, just to see what's changed?

VAN ZANDT:
Sometimes. A song at a time. Sometimes. I'm still livin' in the 50s, man. I have a little cassette recorder. I don't know how to work a CD. I can work a remote on the TV [Chuckles].

PCC:
It had been seven years between studio albums?

VAN ZANDT:
Six or seven... something like that.

PCC:
Why that long a gap?

VAN ZANDT:
There were two or three live albums in between.

PCC:
But was that break helpful to you, in terms of honing new material, taking stock?

VAN ZANDT:
Taking stock -- good way to put it. I don't write songs for fun or anything.

PCC:
Is it an agonizing job, writing songs?

VAN ZANDT:
It's killing me. Is that agonizing enough? [Chuckles] But I'm not churning out albums or anything like that. I'm in competition with Mozart and the Lord... and Beethoven and Lightnin' Hopkins... and The Rolling Stones. [Laughs] I can't just make up some silly song and put it out there. It comes down to that.

As a matter of fact, a friend of mine, Brian, in London, has been shooting footage over a couple, three years, and there's going to be two great videos coming out with this record, "No Deeper Blue." And he's now working on the lip-synching. The hardest thing to do is lip-synching to the track, because they've got live shots of me singing and then the track. And they're pretty close to the same, but it's real technical to get them to look like it's not lip-synched. He's working on that. Yeah, they're really good. I've never seen myself as myself on a video. But he made me look almost handsome. And almost intelligent. [Laughs] So it's great.

PCC:
Do you see that as a useful tool, the videos?

VAN ZANDT:
Oh, for sure. I mean, the record companies do. Whoever's involved. Plus, there could be some 13-year-old girl who sees it and figures, "Well, that's a nice man... and that's a good song." So it is a useful tool.

PCC:
So you think it can broaden the audience, both in terms of age and musical preferences?

VAN ZANDT:
If it gets shown. There's a lot of action around the record. It's going real good in Europe. And it's just getting out over here. So it's useful. But I just want to help somebody. I don't know how to do it exactly. The only way I have to do it is through music.

PCC:
Have you had a lot of feedback along those lines, people saying how much your songs have meant to them?

VAN ZANDT:
Oh, yeah. Quite a bit. But you've got to move forward.

PCC:
Any particularly moving reactions?

VAN ZANDT:
Oh, yeah -- "Saved my life." That last record or that song or whatever, saved my life. I don't know where that comes from... Nice for somebody to know they're not alone.

PCC:
What about for you? What does the process of writing do, in terms of saving your life?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, it's half writing. Maybe not even half. But it's on the road again. You get up in the morning, take a shower, brush your teeth and make sure your guitar is packed up properly... and the suitcase. Get the cab to get to the airport or the truck, whatever you're in. And go to the soundcheck. And you're in motion. Robert Johnson says, "You've got to move." That helps out a lot.

And then you play. I always tend to play longer than normal, because I've been in Europe so much. Over there, sets are like two hours, the ones I do, two hours and 30, something like that. And during that period, if you can hit one note and your voice is correct and one note is correct, then you have reached a level that words can't explain. And hopefully, people in the audience are on the same level. It's a strange thing, Paul, I'll tell you man, a strange thing.

PCC:
It's a rare kind of connection.

VAN ZANDT:
Yeah. It's like pissin' on a spark plug.

PCC:
What about the writing process, when you feel that you're competing with all the great music of all ages, Beethoven you mentioned -- doesn't that put a lot of pressure on you?

VAN ZANDT:
Sometimes. But some take a year to write, others take 30 minutes. A lot of writers say this, but it comes from elsewhere. I happen to be sittin' here and it hits me. You have to be aware, when it hits you. I think most everybody could write songs. Little kids always write songs. There's craftsmanship involved most of the time. Sometimes they just come straight through, you have no idea what they're about or where they're coming from. You just write them down... and play 'em. I've had a bunch like that.

PCC:
If anybody could write songs, why are there so few who can do it well?

VAN ZANDT:
Some people like to pump gas. Some people like to drive trucks. Some people like to sell insurance... But the lazy ones write songs [Laughs].

PCC:
Do you feel you do this by choice? Or is it something you were just destined to do?

VAN ZANDT:
No, it was by choice. A combination of Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Vincent Van Gogh, Bob Dylan, Lightnin' Hopkins... and trees and grass and lakes -- all those influences. I was supposed to be a lawyer...

PCC:
What do you mean, you were supposed to be?

VAN ZANDT:
That's what a lot of my family was. It was just always assumed I'd be a lawyer -- University of Texas law school is called Townes Hall. And my great-great-great grandfather was the diplomat from the Republic of Texas to France... and wrote the constitution of the Republic of Texas. So I came from that kind of family. Not terribly wealthy.

I had a great-grandfather who founded Fort Worth and then he ran off up into Oklahoma Indian territory with all the money and came back. And my grandfather had 40 acres and a mule [laughs]. I'm telling you my whole life history. And my father went to University of Texas on a football scholarship and became a lawyer.

There was no pressure, nothing like that. They were happy when I decided, "I ain't gonna go to college no more. I'm gonna play the guitar." It was like, "Anything that will make you happy, son, is okay with us." They were very kind, nice people. They're long gone.

PCC:
What kind of a childhood did you have? Were you a happy kid?

VAN ZANDT:
I don't think I was... I was happy and all that. I think maybe, I can't remember it, but I think I was maybe a little psychotic.

PCC:
What makes you say that?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, I've been in... if you punched in a computer and checked my record, you would see... But I been doing good. Everything is great. I make beautiful children. I have three. John is 26. Will is going to be 12 in March. And Katie Belle is going to be three on Valentine's Day.

PCC:
So they're from different marriages?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, John, J.T., he's from the very first. And Will and Katie Belle are from the third.

PCC:
And you and your third wife live near one another?

VAN ZANDT:
Yeah, about 45 miles apart [Laughs] I live in Guy Clark's old house, which he built most of the inside and the cabinets. When I was in Europe, they moved me out of the Rock 'n' Roll Hotel, Jeanene, my wife, my ex-wife, and the doctors said I couldn't live there anymore. So when I came back, I moved into Guy's house. So I live out here now. Jeanene and Will and Katie live in a real pretty house about 45 miles away. And there's a lot of love in the family. We just happen to be divorced for liability and insurance and publishing reasons... and my lifestyle.

PCC:
Your lifestyle? So it hasn't changed?

VAN ZANDT:
Oh, it's changed. Calm down. Instead of just raising hell, I'm more interested in reaching people in the audience... or record people or whatever.

PCC:
Having calmed down then, how might that have affected your music?

VAN ZANDT:
It gets more serious. You can hear it. Eight hundred people... you can hear a pin drop. Because it's serious. I ain't in it for money. And I'm not in it for fame. I'm not in it for a joke. I want to hit the people in the heart and have their heart hit the Lord, wherever the Lord may be, which I don't know much about.

PCC:
Is that something you're exploring now, more than before?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, all I can do nman is play the guitar, write songs and play the guitar. And if it works that way, it works that way.

PCC:
When you're dealing with dark subject matter in the songs, does it tend to be when you're in a depressed mood? Some people can't write, when they're feeling down. It's later, when they're happier, that they write the sad songs.

VAN ZANDT:
Well, I'm sure everybody writes different. It doesn't make any difference to me. It's just like, whenever a song comes by -- Guy Clark calls them "butterfly songs," Bukka White called them "sky songs," Lightnin' Hopkins would make them up on the spot. So that's not a factor. Like if there's a good song, just write it. If you have the ability to pick up a pen, just write it down. Some take craftsmanship and others just hit you on the top of the head. Who knows where they come from?

But the fact that I've been doing this for 25 years, I'm aware of when a song comes along and I'm aware of how to play the guitar. And all the little clues that come together to make a song, I'm aware of. But I've heard little kids dancing around a maypole, that were making up and singing as pretty a song as I can do. So it's inborn or outborn, I don't know.

But I've given up my family and my house and my liver and everything else, because I decided that's what I was going to do. Or that's what I do. It's like the old saying, "If I can reach one person in this audience..." [Laughs]. I really believe that.

PCC:
But did you really have to make all those sacrifices in order to do that music?

VAN ZANDT:
You bet. What am I going to be? A happy-go-lucky married man and spend 40,000 miles, sleep three hours a night in a rathole, have parties afterwards and this, that and the other and then be at the soundcheck and be at the gig? It just don't work out.

I decided a long time ago, I could do it. It was a combination of Lightnin' Hopkins and "The Times They Are a Changin,'" the combination of those two records. It started out with Hank Williams, Lefty Frizzell. I was in pre-law, playing the guitar on the ranch for family. And I realized, "Man, you can write songs that really do make a difference." And here we go. It's a long hard road, man. I've been 30,000 miles in the last two months. Fixing to start again.

It ain't easy. And, you know, I can't hardly do it. Mr. Clean, I'm not. I'm all together and everything. But Mr. Clean, I ain't, man. I can't do that. It doesn't make any sense. I couldn't do it. I'm not horrible. I'm not blitzed. And I'm not on drugs or anything like that, but it's just like, "Wow," going to work every morning and coming home to your wife and family, with what I do, it just don't work. You know? Which is a shame. It's a shame we split up. But we still love one another and see one another every couple days or so, when I'm in town. But that's all. And none of that makes any difference. I'm here to play for the folks.

PCC:
The song "Katie Belle Blues" is a beauty.

VAN ZANDT:
Well, she's a beautiful little girl, my daughter. She'll be three on Valentine's Day. Beautiful. But the whole family is beautiful. We just have separate bedrooms... about 45 miles apart.

PCC:
Though there's dark subject matter running through many of your songs, there's also a lot of humor...

VAN ZANDT:
Yeah, I try to keep a little humor in there [laughs]. You bet.

PCC:
Does that get difficult at times, to see the humorous side of things?

VAN ZANDT:
No, because it's like a ping pong ball. You can have a line like,
Now as I stumble
And reel toward my bed
All that I've done
And all that I've said
Means nothin' to me
I'd soon as be dead
And all of this world be forgotten
[from "A Song For"]

And then you come up with "Three penguins riding in the back seat... Cop said, 'Get 'em off the beat, man. I don't want 'em on my street.' 'Yes, sir.' Next day, he's coming down the freeway, same cop sees him and says, "I told you to get them penguins off the street.' He said, 'Yes, sir -- today we're going to the beach.'" So it's like a ping pong ball. It balances out.

PCC:
Is that dichotomy related at all to a bipolar tendency?

VAN ZANDT:
It could be. I've been diagnosed with that before.

PCC:
Are you on medication for that?

VAN ZANDT:
No, I don't take no medication. Every time they try to give me some, I just throw it away.

But as far as the humor in my live shows, I try to keep the humor down, because people didn't pay to see you talk. They paid to see you play guitar and sing your songs. So it's gotten less and less. There were times, where I was just talking until somebody got the hook. It's mostly music now.

PCC:
In your songs, you manage to zero in on people that are too often ignored, the isolated and overlooked. Is that ever a conscious choice, paying attention to that element of our society?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, I have a song, "Marie," that was conscious, that I wrote in L.A., at a Santa Monica hotel. And it was just like, pow, out it came. But I had been thinking, for a couple of days, "I'm going to write a song about the homeless." And here it came. And I played it that night, at McCabe's. It'll be fun to be out there in California again, man. I hope there's an earthquake.

But that's one of the only ones that I've ever thought, "I want to write a song about this." When this new album, "Deeper Blue," gets going good enough and this, that and the other, I'm going to hole up somewhere and maybe try to write some topical stuff. Because "Marie" is real topical.

I have a couple of topical songs and I really like them. A topical attitude, as opposed to, [sings] "Put another log on the fire..." I think they might do a little more good. It always takes me a while to germinate ideas. I already know the producers and I already know the players, if they can do it. But first I've gotta write the songs. But first I have to do the tour on the new one.

PCC:
Do you ever ponder why you're drawn to subject matter that many people choose to sidestep, because it might make them uncomfortable?

VAN ZANDT:
Yeah, I do. I've thought about that. I want to write one about AIDS, but I don't know how to do it. Maybe it will come to me. I can't write it from the first person, because I'm not involved with it. I mean, I don't have it. And if I put myself in a place acting like somebody that had it, I wouldn't know where to... That must be just... I don't understand. I could do it like my brother died from it, but that's kind of a cop-out. But maybe it will come along.

It takes a long time for my brain to germinate, but once the seed is planted, it will get done. But I don't know how to do that one. And I've thought about it for about a year. But I don't know where to start. The homeless, I got that pretty good in "Marie," but there's always room for one more. And maybe the environment, the politics of war. All the topics,, they're wide open.

But songs to me, I don't write 'em for fun or money or anything. When they need to be written, I hope I'm around to do it, is more like the deal. You know what I mean.

PCC:
You talked before about creating songs that will last. What is it, do you think, that makes a song timeless?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, properly written, in terms of... I'm not sure what the terms would be. You've got to spell correctly, I guess [laughs]. And the grammar should be there. But there are plenty of songs where the grammar just doesn't make any sense. So who knows? It's some little spark. I don't know.

But it's funny that you can always tell one. I don't know what it is. But I've been real fortunate to be able to do a few of them that just kind of hit people. But I mean, "Yaba daba daba daba daba daba daba, said the monkey to the chimp" [ the old novelty song "Aba Daba Honeymoon," popularized on film by Debbie Reynolds and Carleton Carpenter], grammar-wise, that's kind of left field [chuckles]. But who knows? It's just the heartstrings.

PCC:
You're admired by so many other songwriters, is that validating for you, to be esteemed by your peers?

VAN ZANDT:
Well, I don't think about it or anything, but it surely is satisfying. Somebody once said, "Flattery is okay, if you hold your breath while it's going on." Yeah, it is flattering. To be held in esteem by your peers, that's always flattering.

PCC:
Well, you have created an amazing body of work.

VAN ZANDT:
Hardest-working man in show business [laughs]. No, that's James Brown, I think. I'm the hardest-working man in folk music. That's not true either. I know a lot of guys that work harder than me. But I can't wait to get back out there.

PCC:
So you still enjoy being on the road.

VAN ZANDT:
You bet. The hum of the wheel soothes the soul. Big time.

PCC:
For a lot of performers, the travel is the part they dread -- the vans or buses, endless hotels...

VAN ZANDT:
We don't need no lightweights. If they don't like it, get a day job [laughs].

PCC:
Well, I'm glad you still find romance and adventure in the troubadour lifestyle.

VAN ZANDT:
You bet. Hundred percent. The trees and the cacti and the sand dunes and the danger zones... a lot of danger zones.

For more on this artist, visit www.townesvanzandt.com or www.tvz-records.myshopify.com.